Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 01:54:47 PM
I dont know about the majority but I am heterosexual, dating men exclusively. As a heterosexual woman, I dont see why the LGB organizations attorneys and lobbies should represent folks like me or push for legal changes for me, since I am not gay.

Then you represent the minority factor

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 01:54:47 PM
I dont see why the LGB organizations attorneys and lobbies should represent folks like me or push for legal changes for me, since I am not gay.

I am more the: Hey here are some people willing to help! COOL!-type.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 02:25:26 PM
I think it is cool too, to have help. I just wonder what the motivation and if there is a cost. If the lobby pushes for gender variance and expression, how does that help the transsexual person who just wants to change their sex? It comes back to the binary vs. variant argument.

(I'm talking about this from a USA-centric view)

The problem is that you probably won't ever be able to make all the bigots change their views of what makes a person male or female.

Not everyone would agree, for instance, that surgery does - and they would argue about *what* surgical technique actually changes sex.  Others would say it's chromosomes.  Others would say it's what you are born looking like.  Others would say it's based on gender expression, and not separate from it.

Sure, you could pass a law, but chances are it would hurt the people who don't fit neatly into the categories defined, or are pushed into a category they don't like (for instance, what if chromosomes become the test?).

In the end, the need for lawyers and lobbyists is to create laws that protect people.  The law that protects the intersexed person can also protect the person who is absolutely, definitely female, but wasn't considered female by their doctor at birth - if the law is done right, and not just passed by intersexed people who want to distance themselves from people who have had SRS.  Likewise, a law saying that post-op women are women could be drafted in either an inclusive or exclusive way - it could be used as a weapon against no-ops, intersexed people, pre-ops, and people who don't identify as male or female ("When you are a woman, you can use this bathroom.  Until then, get lost.").

That's probably the biggest reason for working together.  To make sure that some people don't get fight for rights at the expense of everyone else's rights.  Thank goodness many of the people who are LG & B have raised a stink about leaving T out of ENDA - despite the fact that the #1 argument being used to keep it from passing is that "we'll have men in dresses in your young girl's bathroom" (note that the bigots opposing ENDA would likely consider someone who has had SRS to be a "man in a dress" with no business in any bathroom, regardless of the state of that person's genitals).  And thank goodness that some cross-dressers, among many others, were willing to stand up to the police at Stonewall - something that has helped far more people than just cross-dressers.

I have a lot of background in the disability rights movement, and I've seen that the laws that have helped people (rehabilitation act, IDEA, ADA) are generally very inclusive, much more inclusive than even the lawmakers writing them and the lobbyists promoting them were expecting.  Heck, my favorite amendment is the 14th - the only amendment that gave women anything beyond the right to vote, yet, ironically, one of the biggest reasons some legislators opposed it is that they felt giving blacks citizenship would imply that women were equal to men.  And when we work together with people who don't oppose us, we make better laws.  We end up with inclusive ADA laws, not ADA laws that focus on physical accessibility only.

Do you have data that shows how race effects the results of that survey?

it didn't break it down by race

Quote from: Annah on June 26, 2011, 06:07:49 PM
it didn't break it down by race

what about sampling methodology?  was significant discussion devoted to that component of the article?

Question: For those who desire to separate, how many live with discrimination, bigotry, hatred, etc because they are TG?

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 26, 2011, 07:03:40 PM
Oh, another thing before I go my merry way... about being a minority. Minority yes, because post SRS is not a goal of the T community overall though it is the ideal in most cases for MtF women. But challenging to achieve.

Some transsexual MtF folks who now support the advocacy of the LGB that are pre and mid transition will, in some cases, complete their transitions with SRS. Once they do, will they still desire lobby efforts by LGB organizations representing their rights as women? Just asking those people to think further down the line of their lives about what might be in their best interest.


p.s. you guys and gals are so patient with me, thanks

Hey Valerie

The Survey stated that those they interviewed,  60% of the transwomen interviewed were post operative, 30% were pre operative who is taking HRT and seeing a Therapist or who had received their srs papers and non ops, and 10% were transwomen who were still in the closet and had not taken any steps towards transition.

70% of the survey for transmen were post op for their top halves (hysterectomy were included in this), 25% were transmen who were receiving HRT and therapy, 5% were transmen who were post op on top and bottom. Nothing was giving considering transmen still in the closet who hadn't started transition

@Ann Onymous

The survey was taken in the U.S. and Canada. While it did not have stats on other countries, they did mentioned that other countries where persecution of trans people were involved they worked alongside the LGB "underground"

Quote from: Annah on June 27, 2011, 11:59:33 AM
@Ann Onymous

The survey was taken in the U.S. and Canada. While it did not have stats on other countries, they did mentioned that other countries where persecution of trans people were involved they worked alongside the LGB "underground"

But that does not speak to the actual methodology.  In other words, if it was a self-selection response, then it really is not even statistically valid.  If it was done through various support groups, then it becomes self-selection in an even narrower context...

With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 27, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

but yet the 'younger generation' apparently feels no compunction about claiming that the majority are in favor of the term du jour and has absolutely no qualms about seeking to 'other' us...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 27, 2011, 12:54:16 PM
But that does not speak to the actual methodology.  In other words, if it was a self-selection response, then it really is not even statistically valid.  If it was done through various support groups, then it becomes self-selection in an even narrower context...

The surveys were handed to Clinics, support groups, therapists and some were done by post graduate students asking various transpeople if they could be interviewed.

So not it wasn't a self-selection

Quote from: cynthialee on June 27, 2011, 12:56:38 PM
With so many of the older generation of trans folks woodworked there is no way we could get a survey or poll that would be accurate.

for those in stealth, i believe they were contacted by their formal therapists and current General Practioners

I would need to grab ahold of it again to be 100% sure but I believe that's how they interviewed girls in stealth if I remember correctly

Val,
I haven't seen anyone advocate for a third gender marker other than a few voices. I highly doubt that any law maker here in the states would propose a law that recognises a third gender. That would be a little too far out for the people and not likly to garner votes at a reelection bid.

From where I am sitting there is no threat of being saddled with a 3rd gender status.
Although my spouse would be thrilled to have 'other' on hir ID card, personaly I would not like that one bit.
I am in a bit of a mental quandry over the entire subject of 3rd gender designations on ID's. I would hate it on my ID but I would be so happy if Sevan could have that. Ze is only ever recognised as ze see hirself in trans groups and amongst a few close cisgender friends.
I am torn on this one big time.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 27, 2011, 01:10:39 PM
Would anyone be in favor of a permanent asterisk next to their gender marker or an O as their marker for the rest of their life?

I don't see a reason for an asterisk, that would be a stigma. On the other hand if you ask me whether I will prefer people to accept me as transsexual and woman: no doubt. It's quite interesting, but today it is other people girl-ing me, not myself. I just relax and enjoy. For instance in one of my clinical trials the nurse advisor made sure to tell me that I didn't have to tell my colleagues I am transgender and in another trial their worst fear was that I wouldn't be able to keep myself quiet among my patients, which is of course no problem, because there are professional reasons to do so.
I know women who are several years post-up, who was prohibited from telling colleagues or anyone else about their past. THAT would be my fear.

I experienced the same within my own family: It's no problem you are a girl, but do not tell ANYBODY you were ever different
Not too long ago we went to some family festival and my mother wanted me in a sundress to match her. She made a fuzz about my legs, wanted me in tights, but it was 25 C or something so I refused and she went on "You don't want anyone noticing do you?" You should have seen her reaction when I said "No problem, if they do I'll just tell them I am transgender. After all I joined a flash mob for versatility the day before." "B, b, but, maybe WE don't want that.", she said.

I am openly transgender, but people seem to go out of their way girl-ing me now All of my classmates. About a month ago I even had a teacher take me to the side apologizing for using the phrase "Ladies and gentlemen" a week earlier. It's an all girls class and she felt sorry for hurting me. How sweet is that

The first 1,5 years was nightmare for one, because I had to go by male name 11 months before a legal name change was allowed, but now? My school and classmates CARRY me forward.

Not really.

Quote from: Annah on June 26, 2011, 01:40:40 PM
Exactly. It is about moving forward

To be T in LGBT is not a naughty word. I am somewhat in your boat with this. I only see good things having the T in LGBT because it promotes unity in spite of persecution.

We had a Sexuality class in my Graduate school last semester and a good portion was concerning transgender studies. Studies had shown (based on trans surveys and interviews) the following (which I found to be very interesting):

Around 80% of trans people have no issues with the LGBT spectrum
The majority of trans people who who do not want the T in LGBT are Male to Female Lesbians
The majority of trans people who are fine with the LGBT spectrum are Female to Male (all sexual identities and orientations)

The most passionate trans people who voice an opposition on transgender labels (such us "transgender vs transexual" etc etc) are Male to Female trans
Female to Male trans people, for the most part in the survey, really was not bothered by the labels.

The Majority of trans people who felt they were threatened or taken advantage of by the LGB were Male to Female Trans
Of those Male to Female Trans, it was inconclusive which sexual orientation felt threatened by the LGB.

I did a similiar survey on my facebook and my blog and the result were darn near identical.

Annah, I can tell you why this is.

Trans women are often mistaken for gay men. Trans men may be mistaken for lesbians.

In modern American culture, lesbians are not fully accepted or understood - lesbian sex isn't seen as "real sex," lesbians are seen as "just needing a real man" (or cruder formulations) to straighten them back out. However, lesbians are not seen as threatening or icky. Most people are not grossed out by imagining lesbian sex; most straight men are turned on by it. Being seen as a lesbian isn't scary unless you're attracted to men, and even then it doesn't really trigger any deep-seated horror, just a mild fear of invisibility and unattractiveness.

Gay men, on the other hand, are still objects of hate and disgust and fear. People are alternately threatened and revolted by us. The negative stereotypes surrounding gay men include effeminacy, of course, but also a whole lot of other horrible things like that we're filthy sex-addicted drug-abusing serial-rapist ->-bleeped-<--eating disease factories. We're not any of those things, and most people who aren't consciously extreme bigots will intellectually acknowledge that we're not any of those things, but emotionally, those associations are damn near impossible to break. A lot of the mental and physical health issues in the gay male community can be traced back to the fact that we can't even get rid of those associations for ourselves; we have internalized deep feelings of shame and worthlessness and we act them out in dangerous ways.

And a trans woman, especially if she's feminine from the beginning, spends much of her life fighting off accusations (internal and external) that she's a gay man. This is even more true if she's a lesbian. "I'm not gay!" she screams. And she throws herself into hypermasculine presentation and behaviour trying to prove her not-gayness. And then eventually it all becomes too much and she comes out, only to find that she's now thrust in a political coalition with...gay men. "I'm not gay!" she screams again. "I'm not transgender! I'm not a drag queen! I'm not anything like them! I'm transsexual...I'm just a woman."

And she's right. She's just a woman. What she doesn't realize is that the pain and discrimination she's felt all her life, from when she was young and taunted for being gay to when she came out and was once again taunted or threatened or even murdered for being gay, isn't just because she's mistaken for a gay man. It's because she's mistaken for a gay man and people hate, fear, and loathe gay men. But she doesn't realize this - she thinks it's natural to be viscerally terrified of being mistaken for a gay man, because inside, despite her intellectual belief in GLB equality, she still remembers those messages society sent her about gay men. And when she screams "I'm normal, I'm just a woman," she's really screaming "I'm not one of those weird hypersexual drag-wearing dirty disease-ridden homos!" It's the same thing the assimilationist "straight-acting" gay men are trying to say. Some damn near say it outright in their blog posts, while others have a more coded way of putting it, but the message is the same.

It doesn't work, though. People aren't going to believe you, as long as you're insisting that you're a member of a group with higher social privilege than the one they've mentally put you in. The fact of trans women being mistaken for gay men isn't going to just go away, whether or not the political coalition is dissolved, because the fact is that as children trans girls and gay cis boys are nearly indistinguishable, and as adults you're both still people born in male bodies who do some things that are assigned as "womanly." That's not the fault of the political coalition. As long as gay men are hated, trans women who disclose will be in danger, because you're getting the secondary effects of hate directed toward another group - and bigots don't believe people who insist on a higher level of privilege than the bigot wants to assign to them.

What the coalition can do - what it needs to do, and the reason it needs to exist - is to make every colour in the GLBT rainbow socially acceptable. Trans women wn't have to live in fear of being murdered when and only when gay men don't have to live in fear of being murdered. That's a simple fact. And then, when we're all about equally acceptable, it's not going to be such a big deal to correct people who make the wrong assumption. Just as a gay trans man now, like myself, can fairly comfortably say "I'm not a lesbian, I'm a gay man," a trans woman in a world where gay men weren't hated would be able to say "I'm not a gay man, I'm a woman." And people would believe you. And you would be safe.

Kyril,
bullseye!

Valerie, I think that our own fears are often our worst enemies. It was a huge step for me, when I started transition - took me ten years from the day I was sure about my gender issue to I started doing anything serious about them, in fact, but the world still stands and the smoke has gone.

There are several reasons why I don't think the LGBT-cause will have the results you fear

1. Even though marriage and registered partnerships have almost exactly the same consequences legally gay marriage is probably the single most wanted right within the LGB-community. One of the strongest arguments is that society should treat everybody equally and not have separate laws splitting the people based on their sexual orientation.

The hot issues in Sweden (and soon in Denmark too) is that everybody should be allowed to be recognized in their preferred gender. Othering would contradict, what we actually work for and it would contradict the history of LGB politics as well.


2. A lot of stuff is going on in these areas within the European Union right now. The commissioner of human rights issued a paper stating that it is in accordance with human rights to acknowledge the preferred gender of a transsexual and that medical procedures should not be forced upon anyone for this reason. The committee of ministers issued a report stating that no european countries ought to keep unnecessary registers of their citizens gender identity, sexual orientation or religion. Just recently a report from the council of europe backed the two others stating once again that it is a human right for every person to have their gender identity legally recognized.

So far it seems that we are not moving in the direction you fear.


3. Visibility is about making room to be yourself without fear to disclose when, where or if you want. It is about enhancing your possibilities and making gender (and sexual) variation a natural part of the surroundings.

For instance consider Thailand. My sister-in-law has been the most fantastic support you can imagine. To her being a transsexual is nothing special - she is so used to us from her home country. What more can I wish?

But you are not part of the LGBT.
You do not have anything to do with them.

Certainly you can not be objecting to the free willed choices of others?