Quote from: Valeriedances on June 27, 2011, 05:09:00 PM
But I am just a woman. I am not gay!! I'm really, really not. Being attached to LGB just says, yes I am. I am part of LGB and will always be (according to your views)  . It says you'll never be the same as other women (to me). Even if I have a vagina, breasts and look just like any other woman.

I believe you that you're just a woman. I really, truly do.

But being in a coalition with LGB doesn't mean that you are LGB. Lesbians are in LGBT too, but they're not gay men, nor are they necessarily trans*. They just share common goals with gay men, bisexuals, and trans people. And straight trans women - whether you believe it or not - share common goals with lesbians, gay men, and bisexuals. It doesn't mean you are one of us, or that we believe you are one of us. Just that we have common needs and goals.

Straight trans women and gay men have the shared, completely understandable common need to not be murdered because someone thinks we're gay. You (trans women) are not going to get that by simply splitting off and insisting that you're nothing like gay men, even though it's true. The bigots think you're lying. They think you transitioned to trick them. They think all gay men are disease-ridden sex-crazed perverts who want nothing more than to to rape children and straight men, and trans women are just gay men who dress up and take hormones to fool straight men into sleeping with them, to rape them by deception, to turn them gay. That's their thought process when they find out you're trans. It has nothing to do with the political alliance, and everything to do with straight up homophobia.

The bathroom panic is the same thing. They don't really understand or believe in same-sex attraction and love. Their perception of gay men is that we're deluded, lust-filled, sex-crazed perverts who are out to rape anything and everything. And a trans woman in a women's bathroom, in their eyes, is just one of those gay perverts who wants access to their little girls. And when you tell them that's not true - that you're not gay, that you're a woman, that you're straight, that you have no interest in little girls - they don't believe you. They won't believe you, because in their worldview, you have every reason to lie. In their worldview, being a gay man is a terrible, terrible thing and anyone would deny it, even if it means claiming to be a woman. They would sure as hell deny it (see: Larry Craig).

Trans women aren't murdered just because people think you're gay men. You're murdered because people think you're gay men and that gay men are subhuman and deserve to be murdered. The truth is that neither is correct; you're not gay men and nobody deserves to be murdered. But we have to attack the "deserve to be murdered" part before the "not gay men" part, because as long as the bigots believe that some group of people is subhuman and worthy of death, they're also going to believe that they get to define the boundaries of that group, because nobody they believe is in it can be trusted, because you're subhuman and worthy of death. It's circular, but it's how it works.

In societies where Jews are persecuted, atheists and Christians with Jewish relatives don't get anywhere by claiming that they aren't Jewish. It's true - they aren't Jewish. But when the bigots are in power, they make the definitions, and "truth" doesn't enter into it.

I'm sorry, but we are right back to the same old arguements.

Lets call it a draw, and get on with life.

The reality is no matter how we identify, no matter who we want to be associated with, no matter how we present - mainstream society will decide for themselves who and what we are and any changes in that perception will happen slowly and over a long period of time.  Even if we all, right here, right now, agreed with each other about this debate, it would have practically zero effect on how the world would perceive us.

The best thing any of us can do is educate those within our own lives.  They are the ones who matter most right now.  As a group, be it a trans-only or LGBT group, we can tackle larger challenges.  And it will be the groups that will have the most impact on society.

To the best of my knowledge, the National Center for Transgender Equality, probably the most active and vocal TG group in the U.S., is walking hand-in-hand with LGB groups.  And LGB groups, despite any earlier resistance, has included the T as being part of their community. 

I can't see any debate here or on any other forum having any effect on changing that.  From where I sit, this inclusion has had a far more reaching and positive impact on how T people are perceived than if we tried to go it alone.  We can argue this here until we're blue in the face but that fact will not change.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 06:56:17 AM
By their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other.

This is false.

Heterosexuals aren't repelled by homosexuals "by nature".

Homophobia isn't some "natural state" of the heterosexual.

Heterosexism is nurture.

So is Cissexism.

Those who wish to woodwork and can by all means should do so. Living a life of scrutiny is not for everyone.

But I do believe that those of us who are visable serve to demystify our existance. By being visable we give a point of referance to those who know us. By living our lives productivly and with love demonstrates that we are just as capable of being valuable members of society, just like anyone else.

If every one of us went deep stealth there would be no one to provide an example to the world that we are not deviants when the bigots start spouting off their hate messages against us.

Quote from: kyril on June 27, 2011, 03:50:46 PM
Trans women are often mistaken for gay men. (...) Gay men, on the other hand, are still objects of hate and disgust and fear. People are alternately threatened and revolted by us.

This was a very interesting post Kyril. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us.

I do think homophobia and transphobia may some times be intertwinned, but I think it may operate on different planes too.

I remember in the beginning of my transition one of my neighbors explicitly said "Tippe, you are making MY balls shrink!". I take this as a statement that my transgressing gender boundaries made him insecure about his own position in the gender spectrum. What he had always taken for granted - the sex/gender binary - was suddenly confronted by my rejection of my ascribed gender. He was thereby forced to consider whether his own position was full filling to him too.

That is different from how you explained homophobia.

Quote from: kyril on June 27, 2011, 03:50:46 PM
Annah, I can tell you why this is.

Oh you are preaching to the choir. I completely agree with you! I have very similar beliefs as to why we should be in the LGB spectrum and your other post was also spot on!

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 06:56:17 AM
By their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other.

Quote from: Valeriedances on June 28, 2011, 09:44:14 AM
I think it is fair to say that it is distasteful, to say the least, for both straight and gay people to imagine being intimate with each other. Phobias aside, gay people are strongly turned off with the idea of sex with straight people.

Ok. I've pretty much sat on the sidelines for a lot of the discussions over the last few months and avoided getting involved, one or two minor posts notwithstanding. But this is just too much. I'm sorry Valerie, but in the above you are just flat out wrong, and you are perpetuating damaging, outdated stereotypes by saying these things. I could go into a long and convoluted post with plenty of disclaimers about minority positions and discussing how much those above viewpoints appear prevalent because of the way mainstream society has been coached to react to homosexuality since the late 19th century, but I just don't have the time, or the inclination, to get into this on that level.

People are strongly turned off by a lot of things. For instance, I'm strongly turned off by the idea of my parents having sex. Very strongly. In fact, I wish I weren't contemplating the idea right now. But that doesn't mean I can't love my parents, and be happy for them, and think it's cute when they hold hands and cuddle and kiss - I think they're adorable, and I love that my dad loves his wife, even though I reallyreally don't want to think about anything beyond what they do in public.

(applies brain bleach)

Anyway, there are lots of couples whose sexual activity would totally turn me off. Older folks, thirteen-year-olds, people I find particularly unattractive, lesbians, my family, my ex-husband and his new girlfriend. But I don't hate them or fear them or want them to stop being affectionate with each other or want to ban their relationships, and God knows I don't think they deserve to die for loving each other. I think most people would agree...except when it comes to gay men and trans women, who are the recipients of a special sort of socially-learned hate and fear.

Agreed.  Your experiences, outlook and presence has a great value.  At least to me.  And I'm sure that its almost stupid crazy hard.  Women are more accepting and I think are more sexually fluid (even if they protest that up one side and down the other) and seem to have less problem getting their heads around it. 

And I think that when Valerie said "by their nature, heterosexual and homosexual are strongly repelled by each other" she was speaking in strictly intimate and sexual sense.  They can - and do - get along great in life, but everyone -- EVERYONE -- has sexual stuff that they just freeze up and go Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww to.^*  And however that gets wired into us (and how the fetishes get wired in also) it's wired in damn hard, and those reactions are immediate and unconscious, no matter if's its what turns you on or off.  And lots of guys get the anti gay deal pounded in.  I can't think of another one that is so constantly, publicly, and culturally enforced as the no gay men deal.  Yes, lesbians are hot.  That's because the majority of porn consumed is consumed by men, and no where in the world is the "i don't even want to ever see another man's penis ever" more clearly illustrated than in the popularity of hot girl on girl action.

In societies where Jews are persecuted, atheists and Christians with Jewish relatives don't get anywhere by claiming that they aren't Jewish.
Oh hell yeah.  I bet far more straight guys get beat up for 'being gay' then gay guys do.

* - Here, read this list and tell me that your reactions are not immediate, and that some of that stuff would be an instant deal killer, no way, I'm not talking to you for another second now that you've told me that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code

Um, I feel the need to add here that a lot of gay men I know are very strongly attracted to straight men (as one of them expressed it once, "unreconstructed masculinity is a real turn-on!").

Quote from: Padma on June 28, 2011, 06:17:41 PM
Um, I feel the need to add here that a lot of gay men I know are very strongly attracted to straight men (as one of them expressed it once, "unreconstructed masculinity is a real turn-on!").

That is just sad fetishizing and sexual objectification of a person who does not apreciate it.

Personaly I find men who lust lesbians, gay guys who lust straight guys, straight girls who lust gay men ect ect to be down right creepy and inaproproriate.

Most of the gay men I know are gay because they like men.  Not men who act like girls, but big smelly men.  Likewise get rid of the stereotype of the dykes on bikes and you'll find most lesbians are highly fem, it's a male-free world after all.

Quote from: cynthialee on June 28, 2011, 06:20:33 PM
That is just sad fetishizing and sexual objectification of a person who does not apreciate it.

Personaly I find men who lust lesbians, gay guys who lust straight guys, straight girls who lust gay men ect ect to be down right creepy and inaproproriate.

Well, the only point I was making is that it goes on, not whether it's a good/bad thing, just that it's counter to what's been said above about there being no attraction.

To me, it's not automatically inappropriate/creepy. Sure, sometimes it's fetishising/objectification (just as it is with heterosexuals too), but sometimes it's just the standard "being attracted to someone and then finding out they're unavailable" situation that everyone goes through, but in this case because of sexual orientation. If you're a gay man who likes butch men, this is more likely to happen to you, and that's not creepy, it's just painful. Granted, if you only pursue people who you already know aren't going to be attracted to you, then that's pointless and inappropriate, whatever the reason.

Let's all remember that life is an enormous tapestry with variation everywhere, and try to refrain from attacking diversity and each other's opinions.  And on the matter of opinions, I understand that there are some pretty strong ones here, but can we please use some less inflammatory wording to convey them?  It's not doing anything but hurting other people's feelings.

I know several lesbian MTFs (post-op, not that it should matter) that have horrible stories of rejection from potential partners.  Granted that it's rare for a woman to go into "gay rage" and kill the partner, so there are clearly different dynamics, but I don't think it's that MTFs are seen as gay men, I think it's simpler than that: They are seen as men.  So, yes, an MTF who dates a man might be seen by some as gay, since a man who dates a man is seen as gay.  But the rejection that an MTF might get in some lesbian circles isn't because she's seen as gay, but rather because she's seen as a creepy straight guy.

Witness the whole womyn-born-womyn thing at the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival.

I don't think never hearing transgender/transsexual and "gay" mentioned as part of a group will change this.

As for heterosexual/homosexual, I think a lot of that is because sexuality isn't quite so black and white.  I suspect a lot of people who are heterosexual hold *some* small amount of homosexual attraction/desire/etc.  That doesn't mean they want to sleep with another guy (if they are guys), but it does mean that some have huge self-denial things going on, and, thus, become violent at times.  I don't think it is as simple as "homosexuality and heterosexuality are opposed".  I think probably the majority of negative reactions associated with homophobia come not from people who aren't turned on by it, but rather by people who *ARE* turned on by homosexuality.  There's research to support this - look up "Is homophobia associated with sexual arousal?"

The solution to that problem?  As society learns that sexuality isn't neat little categories, things will get better.  Not just for the gays, but for plenty of straight people too.

I can speak as a person born into a male's body, with no desire to change that, and as someone who's only wanted sexual intimacy with women.  The biggest things I had to get over to date the person who's now my wife was simply ignorance.  I thought of an MTF person as "that crazy person" (yes, that has it's own layers of bigotry), and *because* most well adjusted MTF people live without too much social awareness [EDIT: What I mean is that many well adjusted MTF people don't stick out, and don't parade about as having transitioned, but rather simply live as their appropriate gender], the only people I knew who were MTF were people that I didn't think were very stable mentally.  Fortunately I knew some very outspoken intersexed people, even if I didn't know any outspoken T's (nor G's, L's, or B's - I grew up in the country where people like that supposedly don't exist).  It was the awareness of intersexed people that let me understand transgendered people - after all, the brain is just a different sex organ than the other parts, but just as important in determining a person's sex.

Of course plenty of intersexed people are quick to say, "I don't want anyone to think I'm trans.  I'm not like those..."  They worry that association with trans people will hurt them.  Ah, more minority politics - everyone thinks someone else has to lose for them to win.

I've since realized I'm hardly a stereotypical heterosexual male - but I suspect the stereotypical heterosexual male is a lot rarer than people think.  And I'm certainly in a long-term heterosexual relationship, with zero regrets.  But I've grown over time and understand that none of these traits - sexuality or gender - are quite as firmly defined as people might like.

I suspect fighting for the right thing ("Women are women, and shouldn't have to live with other labels," for instance) probably matters far more than avoiding politically associating with certain other groups.  I think that is more likely to accomplish something than insisting on separation is likely to accomplish.

i think one of the main issues here in the last few posts is that we are putting  black and white requirements to sexuality.

I do agree with Padma. Ive seen a gay man become romantically involved with a woman once. It doesn't necessarily make him bisexual or seeking out a fetish. Likewise, I have seen a gold star lesbian fall in love with a transman and Ive seen another gold star lesbian (i use the word gold star because they had never been with a man before) who had a relationship with a cisgendered male.

It happens and you cannot really dismiss these are even classify them as bisexual or something they were just experimenting with as a form of fetish. On campus we jokingly call these experiences "homo" and "hetero flexible."

We, as transgender people should understand that not all sexuality and gender identifications are cemented within their own definitions.

And the gay man who had the relationship with the woman is gay. He has never been with a woman since. The same is true with the two lesbian women.

Back in my male days I had 3 diferant women who were die hard lesbian fall in love with me. Married two of them and almost married the other.
I know that I have always been a woman and obviously it was my inner female spirit that drew these women too me but still I had (have) a male body and that must have definatly worked against me.

Valerie, with all due respect, I didn't come close to making a personal attack on you. I pointed something out about two particular things you said and I stand by it completely. So in more detail.....

You made the statement that by nature homosexuality and heterosexuality repel each other - your words. Repel, as in disgust, sicken, find offensive... pretty incendiary comment by any standard, that gay and straight peoples private actions disgust each other on a basic level. Understand me, I am not saying that there aren't people on both sides who feel like that. I'm saying that it's not the default majority opinion  'by nature'. Everyone has things that turn them on, make them go 'ewwww' and make them go 'meh'.Generally speaking, amongst gay and straight adults the reaction to the one they aren't is 'meh', from what I've seen. Not turned on, not retching. Neither uncomfortable or excited. It's not distasteful for me to imagine what the other side gets up to.... not always thought like that, but I grew out of being a young teenager. Most people I know are the same way. Not all; some get turned on too, and some feel a bit sick; but most.

Now, that spread doesn't even come close to covering the wide variety of reactions to various sexualities, and reasons for them, that I've come across. I've had conversations with gay men who don't get lesbian sex because ' it's not actually sex unless at least one penis is involved' (actual quote ). I know guys who got into violent fights as teenagers at the merest hint of suggesting they might be gay who are not only completely straight but now are totally happy to full on tongue kiss another man for a bet in full view of 500+ people without blinking. I can also think of some who absolutely squirm at the thought of anal sex, with either gender.... or what sex with another man would entail. Just like I can think of women who squirm at the thought of anal sex. Like I can think of a female friend who gags at the thought of oral sex on a woman... not because she is repelled by lesbianism, but because it's her biggest turn off. Girl on girl or guy on her, bring it up in conversation and watch her gag and turn green.

My point is that if someone is repulsed by a sexual act, the hetero or homosexual nature of the act or themselves shouldn't be first on the list of things to look at for reasons why they find it repulsive. And they certainly aren't inimical to each other.

Also, I never said the viewpoint that hetero and homosexuals find each other distasteful is prevalent.... I said it appears prevalent. Like it appears the world is flat because you can't see past the horizon. For an awful long time people in the west were told sex and sexuality were bad, sinful, to be indulged in reluctantly for procreation if at all.... and that has shaped attitudes for a long long time. Still does strongly for some people. It's part of the root of why homosexuality as a bad thing found its way into our society - if sex is for procreation and sinful and wicked even when for that purpose, then sex without the chance of that is even more sinful and wicked was the almost logic used. And that used to get drilled into us by every means possible for generations. When homosexuals were reluctantly accepted by the moral majority as actually existing, the teaching became even more focused. Unless you hate it, you must be gay. You have to find it repulsive or else there is something wrong with you. So even if you don't have a problem with it, you say you do if it comes up.

And that is where the idea that it's a natural state for homosexuality and heterosexuality to be repellant to each other comes from, rather than the much more logical concept that if something doesn't turn you on, in most cases it just... won't turn you on. Thats the stereotype, and there are a lot of people who are lost in it, and it will take generations more to fade away from being considered the norm. For the same reason it appears so prevalent - it's been a part of us for a very long time, and the people who are really invested in the whole deal are very, very loud. And publish a lot, and speak out a lot, and make it so that 9 out of every 10 things you can find on the subject are about how gay sex is bad, even when 70+% of people are fine with gay marriage. At least until very recently thats the mess everyone was raised in.

And it's something that you, in what you said that I took issue with, are doing a little bit to keep alive and kicking. Not, I think, out of deliberate malice or anything close. Just because of your experiences, as a part of the circus and your experiences with the people you make part of your life who have also been subject to the same pressures. And I'm not negating  or questioning any of those experiences with what I said. I'm saying they spring from a false premise we've all been fed to some extent during our lives.

So no, I don't think it's fair to say that it's greatly distasteful for gay and straight people to imagine being intimate with each other, at least any differently than they would find imagining being intimate with someone of their preffered sex who was unattractive distasteful. And I in no way agree that it's the natural state of things that they automatically strongly repel each other. Apparently not agreeing with you on this and calling you on it amounts to a personal attack?

And since you asked, I've been bringing up why people are gay or straight with them for a long long time now. Asking awkward questions is something that came natural to me, and in the majority of cases? Well they don't have sex with people they aren't physically attracted to because they aren't attracted to them whether they are gay, straight or bi, not because they viscerally dislike the other option. And their emotional reaction to being in an intimate encounter or getting fondled by someone they aren't into really doesn't vary dependent on their gender.

One of the reasons transgender has the negative stigma it does is the visualization of surgically altering your sex organs is repulsive, horrific and/or unimaginable for many people.  It is simply taboo.  And it conjures up the belief anyone who willfully and knowingly has or even wants to alter their sex organs must be insane.

In the early stages of the ENDA campaign, gay and lesbians alike felt the proposed bill should exclude transgender.  "We'll come back and get you later."  When I was in the process of spreading my wings I frequented a couple of nearby gay bars.  I met many gay guys who, before getting to know me, hated transgender people.  But they didn't know any before meeting me.  I befriended a lesbian and we became very close but even she admitted she had a problem seeing me dressed as Julie.  She preferred my male self.  And my experiences are not uncommon.  The average person simply has a problem with transgender people and most of that comes from conditioning.

When Barney Frank seemingly had no problem excluding trans people from ENDA I was shocked.  I thought a gay politician would have had been educated enough to realize how hopeless it would be for trans people to ever gain protections against discrimination if they had to do it alone.  But there he was, leading the ENDA charge and tossing us aside in the process.  He, and most LGB people, didn't want the stink of the T on the ENDA bill.

That's one of the reasons I'm happy we are now seen as an integral part of the LGBT community.  And, as I have said before, it just makes sense to be included because the T is one of our commonalities.  But all that aside, I'm not the least bit surprised when some people express revulsion toward certain forms of sex and revisions of genitalia.  Isn't that visualization primary in the reaction some people have?  What I often wonder is why they even go there.  Like Kyril said about his parents having sex, you just don't think about it.  But some people won't let go of those mental images and they are typically the ones who campaign the hardest to prevent passage of any laws that will give people like us the same rights as everyone else.