I sent this message to a friend today, to explain my recent to sessions with a therapist-in-training (not a psychiatrist or psychologist) who does very controlling sessions for "free" (aka does not work with the patient, but enforces authoritarian views about sexual identity, stress, and confidence - all of her opinions proven false, btw.)

"Hey --, I know we haven't talked in a good time, but I need someone intelligent to talk to. So long story short, and it's one of just the many things I just don't talk about, but I'm actually a transsexual (no surgery/hormone treatments as of yet) and I've known it since I was 4. However, I have a free therapist who's absolutely sabatoging my identity and is trying to force me to both be proud of my masculine features because "masculine is a good thing" (it was in her generation, but hardly anyone in this generation likes overt masculinity, wether the person is gay, straight, bi, les, or transgendered) and that I am "confused" about the positives and negatives of masculinity, that my identity is stemmed from a negative perception toward male features when quite frankly, it's malarky. She's one of those people who, and she admitted it herself, was educated in the 70's and 80's, and those generations were radically different, both in it's acceptence of identity and because neuroscience wasn't incorporated into psychology studies at the time. I've been as transgender/sexual orientation/physical identity counselor on literally dozens of websites for years and years (some of which I've even created myself) and quite literally, I only surround mysrelf with the most up-to-date and detailed studies from the most esteemed sources; but this "therapist" actually uses the phrase "well, when I was in school, I grew up with a different opinion than that, so what you are saying is more a perception and not a fact", which I have a study to back up every single opinion in my brain. She's the one who has outdated "perceptions". However, everything I've told her now goes on my medical record and she has the power to diagnose me with all sorts of false disorders and even to send me to a mental institute (which happens to transsexuals across the states, it's literally a type of imprisonmemt that professionals use to get revenge on those that argue with them or differ on beliefs.) I hate the situation I put myself in and I only jumped into therapy because I wanted help. Now I feel sabatoged and I don't know what in the hell to do. I don't know any sources in ---- for gender/orientation issues."

What should I do here? This therapist is a SCAM ARTIST who I assume is both Christian and takes on an authoritive manner that is not helpful to the patient (accusing the patient of "lying", "being confused", "having transsexualism because of stress that can be cured", ect ect) Who do I turn to? What do I do now that this person has power over my medical records, family ties, and valuable privacy sources of mine? I do not want to go back to this therapist, but I do not want her to throw me into a hospital (I can tell by her opinions and mannerisms that she thinks transsexuals are SINFUL and that she wants revenge.)

What do I do?

Quote from: RhinoP on June 29, 2011, 01:02:50 PM
What do I do?

find another shrink...it may not be free, but it beats the hell out of being beat up mentally. 

Oh, and involuntary commitments are NOT a common occurrence based on counseling sessions (presuming that the 'across the states' comments means you are in the US).

I know like 20 patients on here and other forums who have been involuntarily committed (or trapped into "deals" with their therapists, where the therapist demands sex favors, socializing beyond the session, ect ect in order to "get the patient out of the hospital"). It truly is a factor to fear, and while it may sound extreme, there certainly are less-extreme factors to worry about as well; this therapist outting me to my family, outting me to my medical doctors, blackmailing me, blacklisting me, ect ect. I live in a very close-knit community.

Btw, here's things this therapist have told me:

1. I described how in my generation, around 95% of young male teenager (age 12-18) were typically adrogynous in facial characteristics, because of balanced growth hormone levels that have been proven to be "the most beneficial appearance" by modern sociology studies. However, the therapist, citing her "teenage years" say that I was lying and wrong, that extremely masculine features are a source of pride among men and that I must not have been bullied for looking like an Ogre when I was in school, that my opinion was a "perception distorted by stress or minor experiences." However, studies in our age show that only hormonal imbalances cause YOUNG men (younger than 30) to look much older and haggard. When our hormones line up in the most healthy way, we tend to look adrogynous on the outside, free of skin issues, haggard features, and extreme features. SCIENCE PROVED THIS A LONG TIME AGO.

2. I explained to her that what my generation values in a sexual appearance will always be with me in my generation, that no one in my generation would have sex with someone who looked 40 year old man. She argued with this and said that teenagers have sex with much older men all the time, though THIS IS ILLEGAL. She also said that young adults (18-25) regularly have sex with age 40+ men and women and that this is the true alternative if my current generation does not like my haggard features! I'm not having sex with a 40 year old just because I look like one!

3. She said that ALL teenagers and young adults get bullied at least 10 times a day and this statistic is both FALSE, UNPROVEN, AND SIMPLY PULLED OUT OF HER BUTT. I know more people than not whom I've studied their lives as a therapist myself, and many of them report not having been bullied for physical appearance in YEARS.

4. She told me that sexual identity is ENTIRELY caused by stress factors and that if she could make me happy by internal means, that she could cure my transsexuality and she specifically stated that this was her intention!

5. She told me that if bullying effects my emotions, that I am a weak minded person who DESERVES to be bullied. She told me that a strong person does not get effected by bullying of any sort.

I could go on, but she's a complete nut job and I'm furious!

Quote from: RhinoP on June 29, 2011, 01:39:20 PM
I know like 20 patients on here and other forums who have been involuntarily committed (or trapped into "deals" with their therapists, where the therapist demands sex favors, socializing beyond the session, ect ect in order to "get the patient out of the hospital"). It truly is a factor to fear, and while it may sound extreme, there certainly are less-extreme factors to worry about as well; this therapist outting me to my family, outting me to my medical doctors, blackmailing me, blacklisting me, ect ect. I live in a very close-knit community.

Btw, here's things this therapist have told me:

1. I described how in my generation, around 95% of young male teenager (age 12-18) were typically adrogynous in facial characteristics, because of balanced growth hormone levels that have been proven to be "the most beneficial appearance" by modern sociology studies. However, the therapist, citing her "teenage years" say that I was lying and wrong, that extremely masculine features are a source of pride among men and that I must not have been bullied for looking like an Ogre when I was in school, that my opinion was a "perception distorted by stress or minor experiences." However, studies in our age show that only hormonal imbalances cause YOUNG men (younger than 30) to look much older and haggard. When our hormones line up in the most healthy way, we tend to look adrogynous on the outside, free of skin issues, haggard features, and extreme features. SCIENCE PROVED THIS A LONG TIME AGO.

2. I explained to her that what my generation values in a sexual appearance will always be with me in my generation, that no one in my generation would have sex with someone who looked 40 year old man. She argued with this and said that teenagers have sex with much older men all the time, though THIS IS ILLEGAL. She also said that young adults (18-25) regularly have sex with age 40+ men and women and that this is the true alternative if my current generation does not like my haggard features! I'm not having sex with a 40 year old just because I look like one!

3. She said that ALL teenagers and young adults get bullied at least 10 times a day and this statistic is both FALSE, UNPROVEN, AND SIMPLY PULLED OUT OF HER BUTT. I know more people than not whom I've studied their lives as a therapist myself, and many of them report not having been bullied for physical appearance in YEARS.

4. She told me that sexual identity is ENTIRELY caused by stress factors and that if she could make me happy by internal means, that she could cure my transsexuality and she specifically stated that this was her intention!

5. She told me that if bullying effects my emotions, that I am a weak minded person who DESERVES to be bullied. She told me that a strong person does not get effected by bullying of any sort.

I could go on, but she's a complete nut job and I'm furious!

ok wait, if she is not a psychiatrist or psychologist, why are you seeing her in the first place other then she is free and can give you a letter for hormones possibly.  Just go to a legit therapist, if she outs you for any reason you can sue her for breach of therapist-client priviledge, as in the US she can only break that if your about to kill yourself and you say so like, I am going to off myself today, or child abuse.  For example a guy who has affairs outside of marriage and tells his therapist the therapist CANNOT tell his wife or get some serious legal reprisals. 

Anyway hope this helps, you can also research legal bodies that give out therapy licensing in your state and file a complaint and possibly have her license pulled. 

Well, I have already expressed to her that I constantly think of suicidal thoughts (without intention of harming myself) and she, naturally wanting to hold a weapon over my head because I'm a transsexual, overreacted to it and pretty much thinks I'm looney. As one thread on this forum discussed, if someone lives in the 21st Century and does not think of suicide, they either have it made in a perfect world or are downright high on drugs. If this loon bat gets it in her head that me "quitting/firing" her would lead to my suicide, the contract I signed said that my family and anyone indirectly involved with my care would be notified of my entire care process and therapy secrets.

And no, I have nothing illegal that they have against me.

But yeah, this woman is a "therapist" who's doing time under a "psychiatrist/psychologist" (forgot which one it was), and if I'm not mistaken, this "therapist" will never be anything more than a "therapist" because she only had like a bachelor in social science, or some crap. Her qualifications were not admiring, and her attitude has been downright authoritist, religious, biased, misinformed, uneducated, and downright unhelpful and even vindictive. And I have been nothing of the sort to her.

For instance, we got into an arguement about the importance of physical appearance in transitioning and gender identity, and she was adamant (and authoritist) on the "Fact" that physical appearance is just a "perception" that is a concept beyond gender identity, and plays no role in being diagnosed with a gender identity disorder and/or being given anti-androgens or female hormones. I told her that to me and studies performed around the world, that physical appearance is usually what's most important to a transitioning transgender, that transgenders oftentimes choose hormones, FFS, and clothing changes before genital changes, both for confidence and personal reasons. She again responded that my want of looking like a girl is entirely a perception caused by self-hate, and that I cannot be transgendered without primarily caring about the genitals (when I'm way more realistic than that; it's UNREALISTIC to only care about the genitals.)

So I then gave her the analogy that the way the outside world scientifically sees something is the way it is classified; a man who looks like a girl will be immediately identified as a girl. I told her that the desk sitting in front of me in the office was brown, and that the outside world would label it as such a color because it looks like the color; it would not matter if the desk had a certain number of drawers or scratches, it would still be brown. She then pulled the weird "perception" idea again, saying that to my perception, the desk was brown, but to her perception, it was brownish-black (what does this prove?). I then said one of the best comebacks of the entire day, "Well, the desk isn't pink, let's put it that way."

She's just an absolute religious minded, "cognetive therapy" addicted moron who wants me to conform to a certain lifestyle (she word for word told me that she wanted to make me happy using months and months of therapy and that by the time it was over, I will look at the world as though transgender does not exist, like in the "old days" when it was not availble - she wants me to find other ways to deal with my life.) NOT HAPPENING, I'VE WORKED TOO HARD FOR THIS.

Why do you keep seeing this person?!?!

She is obviously stuck to her own views and outdated research that treated all TS people as crazy and should be institutionalized (are those the good ol' days she refers to?) 

Has she at least read the standards of care? how to properly diagnosis TS, etc...?

Anyways, the only reason i can see you still seeing this person is financial or you want to change the way she thinks, which isnt going to happen unless someone in her family close to her is possibly TS, then she might be motivated to understand it more.

that woman is definitely the same type as those female teachers i had who religiously believe in what they were taught in school. she won't change unless an entire society is against her, something which simply won't happen

if you're afraid of what she may do if you just stop seeing her, go again. make her believe you were just a bit down and confused, but talking to her helped you want to try and accept your masculinity and become a strong and confident man. blatantly lying is ok if it is done to protect yourself against idiots, it can't hurt you as long as you know what you're doing

then, go see another therapist. one who knows what they're doing

I will never for the life of me understand why someone (not just the OP) stays with a therapist that they do not believe is helping them.  There are MANY, MANY treatment providers out there in the world...and even if one is limited by whatever managed healthcare plan they might have, there are still A TON of options, even if it means paying out-of-network fees. 

I had a small handful of one-and-done's when I was 17 and 18...and I was paying out of pocket.  But if that rapport is not there, then it makes no sense to continue with the same provider.  I fully understand that there were and still are dinosaurs out there...they are not all extinct.  But if people quit going to them, then they can become extinct more rapidly. 

Discontinuing treatment IS NOT a basis for involuntary commitment...pure and simple. 

Well, I have to be honest and say that I live in an extremely small town in the middle of the bible belt - the nearest therapist who even sees identity patients (or is on any transgender list across the net) is exactly 2+ hours from me. It's just not possible, though phone therapy is an option I'm considering.

I also just cannot afford the $100+ session fees at this time in addition to 5 hour gas trips and various needs. I am in an extreme financial situation at the moment, and an emotional one as well.

But yeah, this current therapist is free (because she's under training with a psychologist who agrees with her views) and at first I thought "free therapy" would be a miracle for me. I didn't really even think at all that the therapist would be this truly manipulating and condescending. I just never dreamed it would be this way, I went into this expecting modern care and I was open minded fully. But this woman is a psycho. She actually smiles the most evil, wide smile (think Professor Umbridge from Harry Potter) when she causes me to tear up or forces/tricks me into saying something that makes me "seem" as though I'm not really trans. (Like she's super proud of making a "breakthrough.")

However, she is a baffoon and openly admitted that her opinions were based off her experiences in the 80's where "all men loved being hairy, masculine men." She said that she simply had never dealt with even gay, bi, androgynous, ect ect males before, and was totally shocked when I said that most every male in my high school shaved their legs at some point, even the straight guys. I told her these things and explained how "female" the modern male world is (in both fashion and sports) because she blamed my transsexuality on me disliking my male body, which I should be "proud of" (she told me that if I was proud of my male body, which I "should be proud because I look good in an 80's hairy bigfoot way"), and she told me that if I were proud, that I would be happy and would no longer want to be trans. She next told me that her goal was to make me proud my male side through cognitive techniques. Though these "cognitive techniques" have consisted of insulting me severely, calling my perceptions unreal/exaggerated, and citing the most idiotic studies and views that come straight from 1965. I had to explain to her that I was masculine beyond what is normal or accepted among today's men or women; this is why I at least want to start on Androgen Blockers only. I am not begging this therapist for genital surgery or FFS, or even estrogen, I just want Androgen Blockers and that's all I realistically want at this particular emotional/healing stage; I believe this makes me one of the most realistic minded trans on the earth. I'm putting up with TONS in my mind just to settle for wanting anti-androgens for now (I'm not fully developed body wise, so androgen blockers are even MORE important to me.)

Lord.

Quite frankly, I've been a therapist longer than she has. I've created and/or run and/or administrated and/or been a regular participant and counselor on various websites to trans, gay, bi, straight, and identity/body, and plastic surgery people worldwide for about 5 years now, if not longer. I've literally saved lives (I've begged strangers on the phone not to commit suicide, and my techniques plain out work), I've advised people on choices and considerations literally at least 20 times a day, and I've studied extensively the correlations between sociology, psychology, identity, biology, and career culture, using modern studies in correlation to every single topic, and when I've very rarely had to, I'll explain to a person the mental disorders I believe they have (and I only use the latest version of the DSM, the "official" source and is VERY friendly toward our causes IMO.) Quite frankly, it irks me when some wacko who studied social science and whatnot for literally only slightly over 2 years out of a textbook published in 1965 tries to pull a cat over my hat!

So I'm going back to her for the last time (two weeks from now, the office closed for a week or so), and I'm going to say that I'm using more techniques to take my mind off things, and that I'm switching over to another therapist.

i'm not sure how things work in the us, but why don't you just ask your physician to get androgen blockers so you won't go bald before 30? maybe someone who's not a therapist could at least understand not wanting to look like an old man before you are one?

Remember anything free is probably not worth anything.  Actually from what you have written this person is costing you big time in terms of your self respect and mental health.

You would be much better off without her so I'd ditch her. Being unqualified, she cannot have any legal power over you. Self help via reading and internet research has to be a lot more useful.

Karen.

Well, I went to a normal physician yesterday, and I'll just say that at my age, it's very uncommon for men to look extremely haggard, bald, hairy, or downright "middle aged". Adam Lambert is 30 years old as of right now, and I look 10x older than him (but I'm younger). I am going bald very quickly, but I'm also suffering from pretty extreme growth in my brow and jaw regions, along with migraines, facial swelling, and other hormonal imbalances that result in an extremely masculine image (again, not common for my age group). However, the physician did not agree with my physical assessment (he bring up BDD and I told him off very quickly, adding that plastic surgeons worldwide have said I do not look normal for my age group or preferred gender), and yet he turned around and said that all my symptoms are indeed the symptoms of various pituitary diseases stemming from pituitary tumors. I already knew all that because my dad had the same disease I believe I have, though his developed in late middle age.

The doc then took various xrays and blood tests, and I'm hoping that something comes back that would at least give me a medical reason to want anti-androgens. Cuz to be honest, my region is extremely religious, every doctor has the 10 Commandments hanging in their office - my therapist herself said that I should hold it as a trophy because I'm aging quicker than everyone else (I do know the adolescent psychology of many eras, and it was indeed true that some teenagers and young adults of the yesteryear wanted to age as quickly as possible, but the youth of today all literally want to stay young as possible - this is the era of music and media, not the era of plowing and church every 3 days. The only reason any guy would want to age quickly is if they wanted to attract girls who had fetishes for father figures [actually pretty common back some decades ago.]) My entire town and all its professionals are literally stuck in the 70's and 80's - this is the town filled with Southern Baptist Churches.

But there is a gender-friendly endocrinologist who is the same amount of distance as the gender friendly psychologist. I may just have to make a trip 

I guess I should add that because of a medical issue, I cannot drive! So it's really even more expensive and hard for me to travel long distances

Given what you have posted so far I would just get on a train or bus and never come back.  Anywhere has got to be better than that.

Karen.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 01, 2011, 05:43:57 PM
But there is a gender-friendly endocrinologist who is the same amount of distance as the gender friendly psychologist. I may just have to make a trip 

I guess I should add that because of a medical issue, I cannot drive! So it's really even more expensive and hard for me to travel long distances

believe it or not, that's not as bad as you might think. if i want treatment for gender issues i'd have to go to the capital where all the expertise are gathered. that's over 800 miles away, cheapest way to travel is by train and would take me near 24 hours, but it's only 16h by car.. you're actually lucky to have someone that close by, over here you can't even get to a normal hospital in less than 2 1/2 hours

I traveled (by plane) the entire distance of the country once, for a surgical procedure. From the farthest east side of the USA all the way directly to the west edge right on the beach; it was only like a 5 hour flight though.

And yeah, two hours distance is where the capitol of my state is. It's really not that bad (I've been to the capitol a billion times in my childhood) but I'll just say that it is a bit of a wallet chunk to travel that distance, and on top of that, I'm not totally sure the gender professionals in the capitol know their stuff. There's only a tiny handful of them. Also, because of the distance, I wouldn't be able to do daily therapy and the professionals would pretty much have to give me a letter of recommendation the day I arrive - I mean, I don't have any mental health issues, and the anti-androgens are just as much of a health positive as a identity positive, so I don't see why they'd specifically need a real-life experience.

Simply put, I'd want anti-androgens no matter what sex I identify with, who wants to go bald and get all burly looking at my age! Not even any guy in the normal professional world wants that lol.

Quote from: RhinoP on July 02, 2011, 04:39:01 PM
Also, because of the distance, I wouldn't be able to do daily therapy and the professionals would pretty much have to give me a letter of recommendation the day I arrive - I mean, I don't have any mental health issues, and the anti-androgens are just as much of a health positive as a identity positive, so I don't see why they'd specifically need a real-life experience.

I don't know of ANYONE doing daily therapy for GID or whatever other term one wants to apply to the condition.  I think I went and saw my therapist about once every six to eight weeks...actually could have had my letter for surgery on the first trip if I had really been ready to cover the costs at that point.  It helped that she was also not a fan of the crock of crap known as the SoC when the issues were readily apparent at visit #1 and there were no other MH concerns...

I agree with what's been said above, she's not really free at all, you're paying for this therapy in distress. Make an investment in your own well-being and find another way of getting real support. Get some advice from support groups (if there aren't any really local, find the nearest and talk to them). You don't have to put up with this.

The only thing I'm scared of is to the "usual" eye, I do have "mental health issues". I'm extremely frantic about my appearance - for instance, when in public, I'm pretty addicted to doing make-up every 5 seconds *joke* because there's extreme irregularities with my nose after two surgeries, giving my nose a very harsh shine, and I constantly try to dull that shine down in public with make-up. The truth is that when I manage to diminish the shine, I 100% am "fine" with my appearance and don't have nerves about it. However, because of my skin conditions (oil, not-so-great make-up, ect ect) my feature gets extremely shiny very quickly and gives me such a harsh appearance after just like 10 minutes of walking around. I know for a fact that when the shine doesn't exist, I'm perfectly fine, but when it does, it makes me look so harsh (it really is pretty bad) and it makes me really depressed and frantically using techniques to cover it back up. The same goes for my male hormone induced skin problems - rosacea, acne, facial oil, ect ect, though I'm slightly less picky about those issues because other people do slightly suffer from those issues as well (though no one I know suffers from a pretty darn disfigured nose!)

It would take a whole session to convince even a good therapist that that is not BDD (but a product of having a botched, irregular surgery that makes me look masculine, and the effects of the male hormones causing the skin problems.)

I mean, hopefully, I could just lie about everything and say that I function normally in public and that I simply know profoundly that it's my time to halt masculine features and transition, but the truth is that I'm a mess in public, yet I do know that all my symptoms are the result of features that are very obvious and that cause me to get insulted literally almost every day. Physical means are what cure me, it's not an internal mental problem - sadly, even the best of therapists don't support this idea always, and I'm afraid that a therapist would pick up on my true public emotions and force me to wait on hormones on the basis of "mental problems"; like my current therapist is doing.

For those of you who are thinking BDD, I've been fired from multiple productions and businesses because my facial conditions are so bad, with the employers directly telling me that my facial appearance is not suited for the job and even that it causes me to look "homeless" or like a "druggie". My skin and nasal condition after extreme hormonal imbalances and very negative surgery is just a mess! Even my current skin treatments prescribed by the dermatologist are making me look like a puffer fish that's allergic to oxygen, I really look like a dirty, nasty, oily homeless person! >.< Doesn't help that my facial bone structure is so extraordinarily haggard and masculine. This all together may cause a therapist to assume that transitioning would be "impossible" for me, and thus hold back my treatments in attempt to talk me out of it.

Really though, even through all my features, I personally "see" the girl in me and I'm only looking for an improved and softer/healthier look for myself. I do believe I'll need forehead surgery without a doubt (it's not just a 'ridge, it's an entire craniofacial thing with my case), and skin/hormone treatments for my skin problems, a final revision rhinoplasty if the skin/hormone treatments don't improve the texture and look of my nasal feature, and I may need buccal fat lipo because my cheeks are getting VERY thick and haggard. I do want a slightly haughty look through the cheeks and I look so good with that slimness in that area. Then of coarse, it's just wigs, clothing, and confidence after that! The last thing I think would be a *slight* jaw shave just to give it a contour more like it was back in the day when I was more passable, but the other improvements may rule out the need for that.

Personally, I think I'm extremely conservative when it comes to improvements and I have the motto of "do only what I absolutely need to do to pass and feel female and natural." - beyond that, I sort of have a Sofia Coppola attitude toward appearance (sloppy and tomboyish.) I do only want to look natural!

My advice is do what ever you can to see someone else.
I am in the same boat, My psych is free (Bulk Bill) and for the last four months I am feeling him dragging me down with his opinions and attitude. I don't feel at all comfortable to tell him stuff but,  at the same time I feel like he is trying to help me and I feel if I go to someone else that they will be exactly the same, though I know that is not true. He has even convinced my Doctor that AA's would be of no benefit to me what so ever, even though I told him when I was self Med'ing for four years that they actually were

So if you actually want this like I do, you need to try and break that hold and see someone else

Hells Bells!
I though I had a real SOB for a "gate-keeper" (the *ONLY* person in SA that opens the door to a no-cash GRS at a state hospital)
Saving some US$20k is no small change, and I had to go along with this idjet for my "Benjamin year".
He point blank refused to clear me for HRT after seeing him for 3 month, yet I was full time RLE after our first meeting.
He would not even clear me after he cleared me for GRS! Can one believe it? Got my stuff from my GP then, hey!
I guess you get the picture.
Sucking up to this prick for a year was one challenge, yet I got his pass --- not to be thrown out of the state hospital interview for asking them to consider "inversion" rather then their policy "colon-section" only. More fun!
They considered my even asking an insult on their superior "results". Later on I saw those and thank God I was refuse their superior GRS – plain ghastly!
Following the state hospital's refusal of inversion, the gate-keeper prick pulled the rug from under me.
The point?
Their are some prime arseholes in this profession and why they become "gate-keepers" is completely beyond me.
He also charged $50 for 15 min which is VERY pricey in deed for our SA cost structures.
His therapy was practically non-existened. During the 15 min he would argue about the hem-line of my skirt and such crap. No empthy, no insight just $$$ signs.

It was just a question of time this bubble would burst so: I FOUND ANOTHER THERAPIST, AND GOT MY LETTER AFTER A FINAL OF 4 more sessions.

Get another therapist as in: "You get what you pay for!"

This one you describe sounds even worse then what I had, who almost drove me to suicide at one stage.

Just another perspective, it may help,
Axelle