I can certainly see the importance of the "Do I pass" thread and I think it is a very important thread to have. I know when I was transitioning, I would def want to post in there to get honest feedback.

However, I have noticed somewhat of a trend in the thread. I didn't know if I was the only one; but there seems to be some people who respond "oh you def pass" when it is clearly evident that the person posting those pics would not.

Now, don't get me wrong or misunderstand me. The great vast majority of all the girls posting in there will pass one day. I can def see their features become more feminine when undergoing hrt, etc etc but I would assume when you tell a girl "oh you def pass" would be damaging if they currently do not. To me, this could be a very bad thing because the girl can become very confident in their ability to pass (confidence is great) but what happens when they go out in the world and gets clocked or has a bad experience? It could really effect them in a negative way.

With that said, No one should ever say "no you don't pass" without offering any suggestions to help them approve their appearance, clothing, etc etc. As I came to understand that thread, people with experience in living real life experience or who has done things better their reflections could pass their words of wisdom down to other girls who are just starting the process.

There are some girls who do offer honest feedback on what to do to help the girl out. I have seen excellent suggestions that would help the girls out but mostly this thread i am creating is about those who pretty much pastes a copied "oh you pass" after every pic laid down.

To me, telling a girl "you pass" when they clearly are not there yet is just as damaging as telling a girl "you don't pass" without offering suggestions to better their look.

I don't know....maybe it's just me but if I was in the beginnings of transition, I would feel a little "belittled" if someone told me I passed without any explanations when I knew down in my heart I had a long ways to go.

One of my best friends were very honest with me when I was transitioning. She would say "you are getting there! But you may wanna trim those eyebrows a bit" or "sweety, you just started HRT, you need to give yourself some more time before features change." Those were very critical comments to me. One friend was even honest to me and told me that my hair would clock me everytime. She gave me suggestions and after a hair transplant in the forehead region I became more confident and I tryly appreciated her honesty. If you look at the thread that has our before pics...look up mine. You'll see exactly what I am talking about.

When someone comes to me and asks if they pass I always tell them that I look at these features to determine if someone can blend in.

1. Their voice. You can be the most beautiful woman in the world but if your voice is masculine, no amounts of FFS or makeup or HRT will help.
2. Hair. Your hairline is very important. If you have a very receding hairline (like I did), that will get you clocked pretty easily too.

Fortunately, both of these steps can be easily fixed. Voice can be fixed if practiced. And your hair can be fixed through transplants and if you cannot afford that,  you can find an awesome inexpensive wig that looks extremely lifelike. (When it comes to wigs, there is a good inexpensive wig and there is the expensive wig that really looks fake..it just takes a lot of research and what hair style conforms to your face better).

But yea, for the most part. If someone really looks like they may not pass to well, don't just say "oh you pass!" Be honest! But with that honest show respect and offer suggestions that would help her!

This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

Quote from: girl_ashley on June 30, 2011, 02:25:46 PM
This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

I would have to 100% disagree with this. A place for support is not a place where people will give out false responses. I am sure the girls who post in the "Do I pass?" thread wants honest feedback. One would assume the "You look fabulous darling" thread is about positive responses so if they want just positive responses then they could there.

One of the biggest assets of a support group is the ability to be honest with each other and to help each other on this journey and to hold each other accountable. To lie in a support forum negates the very essence of why support even exists. So I have to respectfully disagree with your ideals on this matter.

I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

Quote from: girl_ashley on June 30, 2011, 02:25:46 PM
This is a support forum and so people like to give out positive response whether or not it is actually true.

for all of the other disagreements I have had with annah, I have to agree with her on this one...I would opine that making a positive response even when it is NOT a true statement is the very antithesis of support.  One would be doing the poster a tremendous disservice and, potentially, placing them in harm's way. 

I understand that nobody wants to make negative comments, but the reality is that some of those who have posted will be clocked no matter what they do (I am reminded of the scene from A League of Their Own where the suggestion for how to help one of the girls was 'lots of night games').  Is it fair to them, especially in an anonymous setting, to give false senses of security? 

There also exists the fact that there is more to 'passing' than a head shot...voice, mannerisms, overall body structure and a host of other cues that are not readily apparent in a few online photos factor into the equation.  Further, there also exists the fact that characteristics picked out quickly by those on the board may be cues missed by the general public.   

 

Quote from: cynthialee on June 30, 2011, 02:42:24 PM
I just posted there recently and the input I got was that I didn't pass due to my hair line and forehead.

Working as intended.

I just read the responses to you, Cynthia. One girl said you didn't pass because of your hair line and another said you did pass. Now, if I were you, I would be like "huh?"

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we are all trans and sometimes what we see can be different on what other people see. Like I always tell my friends.....you wanna know if you pass or not? Go to the mall and strike up a conversation with some teenage girls in the food court.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
I just read the responses to you, Cynthia. One girl said you didn't pass because of your hair line and another said you did pass. Now, if I were you, I would be like "huh?"

I would like to point out, not everyone has the same opinion, and judging passing from a photo is an opinion, there isn't a set of criteria that are absolute in determining if someone does or doesn't. Basically it is totally legitimate for two people to see the same photo and have a differing viewpoint on it. If nothing else, I wouldn't assume someone was lying in the name of being supportive, even if they are, it is hardly tactful to assume that they are.

That being said, if someone asks for critical opinions then I would give it, but otherwise I would not lie, nor would I say something negative.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:51:00 PM
Like I always tell my friends.....you wanna know if you pass or not? Go to the mall and strike up a conversation with some teenage girls in the food court.

Annah, I did make the same point you've made very early on in the "Do I pass"thread.

Quote from: Hikari on June 30, 2011, 04:11:29 PM
I would like to point out, not everyone has the same opinion, and judging passing from a photo is an opinion, there isn't a set of criteria that are absolute in determining if someone does or doesn't. Basically it is totally legitimate for two people to see the same photo and have a differing viewpoint on it. If nothing else, I wouldn't assume someone was lying in the name of being supportive, even if they are, it is hardly tactful to assume that they are.

That being said, if someone asks for critical opinions then I would give it, but otherwise I would not lie, nor would I say something negative.

Hikari

I completely agree with you. One should give suggestions and never be rude of brash.

Also, I do agree that everyone's views on how they see someone else can be different. My thread was really for the same ones who keep saying "oh you pass" over and over and over despite the situation given.

There might just be a lot of people who really aren't very good judges of this.

I completely agree, I see it on the FTM thread too, I think people are just trying to be nice, but I agree that's its better to nicely tell someone that you don't think they pass, and what to do to try and fix it.

I think we can all see who passes and who doesn't pass but we want to be politically correct and not upset the forum police!

No one responded to me in the thread, however I did get a message with some links to before and afters. This was enough to placate my anxiety.

To me I care less about satisfying someone elses perception of beautiful, and more about satisfying mine.

Dont get me wrong, I am terrified that I will look like a monster, but I am working out dilligently and dieting so we will see.

I agree though Annah. All I care about is the truth. Please do not lie to me to try to make me feel better. Thats what I call bull->-bleeped-<-, and if I am already stressed out, nothing makes me more stressed that people trying to bull->-bleeped-<- me. 

Quote from: Ann Onymous on June 30, 2011, 02:45:07 PM
for all of the other disagreements I have had with annah, I have to agree with her on this one...I would opine that making a positive response even when it is NOT a true statement is the very antithesis of support.  One would be doing the poster a tremendous disservice and, potentially, placing them in harm's way. 

I understand that nobody wants to make negative comments, but the reality is that some of those who have posted will be clocked no matter what they do (I am reminded of the scene from A League of Their Own where the suggestion for how to help one of the girls was 'lots of night games').  Is it fair to them, especially in an anonymous setting, to give false senses of security? 

There also exists the fact that there is more to 'passing' than a head shot...voice, mannerisms, overall body structure and a host of other cues that are not readily apparent in a few online photos factor into the equation. Further, there also exists the fact that characteristics picked out quickly by those on the board may be cues missed by the general public. 

I think the last sentence is quite important. There are times when I wonder why the hell people think I'm female when I'm not even trying to present myself as one. I spotted a few T* girls who passed easily otherwise, but I know what to look for.

I agree that it is not support to suggest that someone who does not pass does.

I also agree that there are cultural and age based judgments going on that affect how we view things. Someone who lives in one region will have different assumptions than someone who lives in another - this doesn't really help the OP in those threads. On the other hand, someone who is a different age may have a different judgment, and this really MAY help. I think it is common for people to be able to pass among one age group and NOT among another.

Last, I agree that these threads are misleading - even if we were to be perfectly honest and perfectly 'nice' - in giving people any sense of whether they really pass in public. This is why I don't even reply to them at all. Whether I think someone passes or not in a 2D pic on the internet bears so little resemblance to whether someone passes or not in real life, that I don't think it's either supportive or productive for me to comment. If someone posts a video and says, "I know I'm not passing, can you help see why?" or "I pass 50/50, here is when I often don't, what can I change?", then I might have something useful to say about it.

Quote from: Naturally Blonde on June 30, 2011, 04:44:36 PM
I think we can all see who passes and who doesn't pass but we want to be politically correct and not upset the forum police!

Totally agree.

I've made this point myself at times. I think people just want to be unequivocally supportive and not offer any critical advice. I remember back in January when I started posting my videos, the best advice I got was from Cyndi who basically said I looked good, but my voice was andro and needed a little more work. So I did work on it. One of the few times I was read back then was when I spoke.

Anyway, my major problem with that thread is that a photo does not tell the whole story. Video does a much better job of giving us, not just voice, but presentation. By that I mean, does the person move and express herself like a woman? That can be important too.

Quote from: Rabbit on June 30, 2011, 04:51:39 PM
People who post honest thoughts are often attacked on this forum. You claim to want the truth... but even in that very thread, you attacked the person saying 25 percent of the people posting didn't pass (and probably requiring some FFS) as having "some pretty biased philosophies of what a beautiful woman is".

I was responding to a person saying that everyone should get FFS. That's a rather big difference than giving good solid directions on passing, etc etc. Even her name meant nose surgery.

Not everyone can afford FFS. Her views were "everyone who wants to pass should have it."

That is an entirely different topic than what I suggested here.

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 04:59:46 PM
Not everyone can afford FFS. Her views were "everyone who wants to pass should have it."

not to mention that not everyone needs it...

This is one reason I have never posted in these "do I pass" threads.

Its highly prejudice, its like a drug addict asking another "do you think I have a problem with drugs"

I have posted some pics on another forum very early on in my transition, I recieved nothing but compliments and words of encouragement to go full time. I was nowhere near ready to go full time (still am not) but if I based going full time or even part time on what everyone thought, I'm sure I wouldn't of done so well accumulating female back then.

I have recieved so much good advice and support from Susan's and another forum but I still have a hard time taking advice from other people going through the same same fears and struggles as me. I have found out as my transition keeps moving forward many of things said to me or what I may have read are very true. I tend to think "well she's trans also so she's just saying that to help me cope better". thats not necessarily true.

As for passing! No one will ever pass to anyone that knew them before or knows there birth gender. Yes, they may be excepting but at best they will always see a hint of "him".

Want to know if you pass? just tell someone your (very) male name and then listen while they still ask if your the childs mother  . I also have even been asked how to spell it, (male name)I don't think a first grader could spell it wrong! 

I believe there are people that use face recognition to gender people or remember them better. I also believe people like this are rare, most people couldn't even say what looks different about a freind that just shaved his mustache he had for over ten years.

Shelly