Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
I can certainly see the importance of the "Do I pass" thread and I think it is a very important thread to have. I know when I was transitioning, I would def want to post in there to get honest feedback.

However, I have noticed somewhat of a trend in the thread. I didn't know if I was the only one; but there seems to be some people who respond "oh you def pass" when it is clearly evident that the person posting those pics would not.

Now, don't get me wrong or misunderstand me. The great vast majority of all the girls posting in there will pass one day. I can def see their features become more feminine when undergoing hrt, etc etc but I would assume when you tell a girl "oh you def pass" would be damaging if they currently do not. To me, this could be a very bad thing because the girl can become very confident in their ability to pass (confidence is great) but what happens when they go out in the world and gets clocked or has a bad experience? It could really effect them in a negative way.

With that said, No one should ever say "no you don't pass" without offering any suggestions to help them approve their appearance, clothing, etc etc. As I came to understand that thread, people with experience in living real life experience or who has done things better their reflections could pass their words of wisdom down to other girls who are just starting the process.

There are some girls who do offer honest feedback on what to do to help the girl out. I have seen excellent suggestions that would help the girls out but mostly this thread i am creating is about those who pretty much pastes a copied "oh you pass" after every pic laid down.

To me, telling a girl "you pass" when they clearly are not there yet is just as damaging as telling a girl "you don't pass" without offering suggestions to better their look.

I don't know....maybe it's just me but if I was in the beginnings of transition, I would feel a little "belittled" if someone told me I passed without any explanations when I knew down in my heart I had a long ways to go.

One of my best friends were very honest with me when I was transitioning. She would say "you are getting there! But you may wanna trim those eyebrows a bit" or "sweety, you just started HRT, you need to give yourself some more time before features change." Those were very critical comments to me. One friend was even honest to me and told me that my hair would clock me everytime. She gave me suggestions and after a hair transplant in the forehead region I became more confident and I tryly appreciated her honesty. If you look at the thread that has our before pics...look up mine. You'll see exactly what I am talking about.

When someone comes to me and asks if they pass I always tell them that I look at these features to determine if someone can blend in.

1. Their voice. You can be the most beautiful woman in the world but if your voice is masculine, no amounts of FFS or makeup or HRT will help.
2. Hair. Your hairline is very important. If you have a very receding hairline (like I did), that will get you clocked pretty easily too.

Fortunately, both of these steps can be easily fixed. Voice can be fixed if practiced. And your hair can be fixed through transplants and if you cannot afford that,  you can find an awesome inexpensive wig that looks extremely lifelike. (When it comes to wigs, there is a good inexpensive wig and there is the expensive wig that really looks fake..it just takes a lot of research and what hair style conforms to your face better).

But yea, for the most part. If someone really looks like they may not pass to well, don't just say "oh you pass!" Be honest! But with that honest show respect and offer suggestions that would help her!

I agree with you 110%! patronizing someone does no good.  as bad as it may seem, the truth, even if brutal, is best

Quote from: Annah on June 30, 2011, 11:24:47 PM
i work right next to A & F ...that is also a good testing ground lol

Another good spot is to work where I work. I work in the juniors (teenage girl) section of JC Penney. That's a proven ground for ya!

Yep. Teenage girls are the litmus test for many. Especially where they congregate in groups.

The first time I was able to go in to A & F (full femme mode with my two friends along checking to see if anyone read me), and not only tried on, but then bought a super kewt denim mini... and was never looked at twice... well lets just say it was a good day and a great feeling. Really satisfying to say the least. The girl at the fitting room even complimented my butt, and I was like... WOW... uh, thanks.

People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

Quote from: RhinoP on June 30, 2011, 10:44:56 PM
I personally am jealous of all the gals on this forum (and I've counted over 50 just by casual browsing) and all the people in my real world life (2,000) who can pass 100%, no matter what they have done. Let's all be honest; the majority of people on here pass so well that they could be fashion models, or at least could hold other media careers because of equally beautiful looks. People who look so extraordinarily like a real girl that you have to accuse them of lying about being trans! We also have to admit that, a little bit less often (or because these folks aren't fond of posting pics), some folks just do not pass. We love them equally and treat them no differently here (I wouldn't at least), but sometimes we do know what the outside world sees in that person; it makes me personally feel so much empathy for them, and makes me hope that in their heart's heart, they have found the keys of happiness that work for them (these keys are not the same for everyone.)

I guess in my heart of hearts, I aspire to be somewhat near a very beautiful girl because I want people to judge me automatically, where I don't literally scare little children and all of my "potential" friends and coworkers away (it happens every day with me.) I want people to see me as a girl. I don't want to have to be that "strong resilient proactive gal who scares off all the men like a overprotective-of-myself lesbian because I'm constantly trying to be proud of my personality while I look like Shrek." It stems partially from my desire to be the cute, cuddly, soft gal who can be in the arms of a straight (acting) man. I know the psychology of gay men extensively and I can tell you right now that not even a gay man or an experimental man will treat a masculine man like a girl unless he truly looks like one to at least some extent (even if it's just softer features). The psychology of looks and sexual attraction is just stronger than what our personalities can accomplish in a sexual relationship (especially in a one night stand!) In the words of Lady Gaga's new song The Queen, "I can [want to] be the Queen that's inside of me."

Though to be honest, right now, I just don't feel like a Queen. I don't even feel like a King. I feel like a loser. :[

But then again, I know what it feels like to have lived in transition full time. I used to be extremely attractive and very passable (after a FFS nasal procedure), and that's when I lived life as a female. I was happy, I discovered the dramas and sexual lives of a teenage girl, and everyone loved me beyond the normal drama that a normal teenage girl was supposed to face. Then a car accident disfigured my face and it had to be rebuilt with grafts, and then I developed Androgen Oversensitivity Syndrome/potential Acromegaly, where family and health prevented me from getting on Anti-Androgens and Estrogen, and because of the nature of my hormonal disease, my craniofacial skeleton has grown dramatically. I know what this process feels like and I know it makes me happy to look beautiful, no doubt in my mind because I've already been there. I'm walking proof of every single one of my theories.

However, I'm probably one of the only transsexuals who've been through FSS, discovered happiness, then developed diseases on top of severe craniofacial injuries from a car wreck, and have had to deal with the post-traumatic effects of both my currently deformed appearance (male or female) and the identity/age group (female, younger than 30). No matter how extreme of subcultures you dive into (medical transsexualism) there will always be an even more extreme individual and well....my process has been pretty darn different than most, I must say!

you seem to be hung up a bit on fashion models.....facial appearance is only a fraction of what it takes to pass

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

why? because if she isnt beyond a doubt female, in the eyes of the rest of society, she could be discriminated against, harassed, raped, assaulted, or even killed. Time to face the harsh reality.  If you cant fix it, then work around it.

Quote from: JennX on July 01, 2011, 12:05:48 AM
Yep. Teenage girls are the litmus test for many. Especially where they congregate in groups.

The first time I was able to go in to A & F (full femme mode with my two friends along checking to see if anyone read me), and not only tried on, but then bought a super kewt denim mini... and was never looked at twice... well lets just say it was a good day and a great feeling. Really satisfying to say the least. The girl at the fitting room even complimented my butt, and I was like... WOW... uh, thanks.

does it turn the blue litmus red or the red litmus blue? lol

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on July 01, 2011, 12:15:11 AM
does it turn the blue litmus red or the red litmus blue? lol

Periwinkle blue... with sparkles.   

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 12:06:32 AM
People...please realise It's not a test! And you don't get marks

why on earth would any woman need to pass some sort of female test?

because not everyone is understanding or sympathetic to trans people. It's not a perfect world so, yes, some people do find passing as a female is crucial to blend in to society where they are less understanding or even violent. The real world is less accommodating than a trans support site.

Quote from: Elijah on July 01, 2011, 12:15:00 AM
why? because if she isnt beyond a doubt female, in the eyes of the rest of society, she could be discriminated against, harassed, raped, assaulted, or even killed. Time to face the harsh reality.  If you cant fix it, then work around it.

exactly

Seriously, if you think it's a test you're doing it wrong and at some level you expect to fail so when you do it ends up turning your day upside down and then you don't leave the house for a week. I see some utter mingers when i walk through town, and i could guarantee that none of them have any trans history and no one questions their femininity (yeah they might be called ugly but that's a whole different kettle of fish), so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

Apperance is about 30% of the overall package and i'm incliding voice in that, you could be stunningly beautiful but if deep down you still worry that people will see you as a man in a dress then that is what they will see. Attitude is everytingng

Appearance is important for another reason. While is not against any law, police men can be very unpleasant if they want to be. I explained my true reasons to be dressed normal/female when stopped for a minor reason however these type men are kind of mean spirited. Please look your best & be safe.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:21:28 AM
Seriously, if you think it's a test you're doing it wrong and at some level you expect to fail so when you do it ends up turning your day upside down and then you don't leave the house for a week. I see some utter mingers when i walk through town, and i could guarantee that none of them have any trans history and no one questions their femininity (yeah they might be called ugly but that's a whole different kettle of fish), so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

Apperance is about 30% of the overall package and i'm incliding voice in that, you could be stunningly beautiful but if deep down you still worry that people will see you as a man in a dress then that is what they will see. Attitude is everytingng

You are the only one calling it a test.

To me, passing or blending in is not a test but a way of life for me and it is something that I am part of both physically and spiritually. Me looking like a female, doing my daily activities as a female is not a test but it is me.

Your last paragraph is everything I also have been explaining about so I agree with you there. Appearance is not everything; however, it is part of one of many important assets to many transpeople.

You mention it is not a test. I agree. However, passing is a way of life for those who desire to work in environments that do not understand or appreciate transpeople.

If you can show me a society that would let transpeople be whoever they want to be without any recourse of action or any other negative responses, then the who issue of "passing" or "blending in" would not be as important.

However, at this time, the world's societies are not there yet. And even if the world's society was understanding, I will still continue to "blend in" because for me it isn't a test; rather it is who I am.

"Seriously, if you think it's a test"

the thread in question is "Do I Pass" so with that no one is saying "you have to pass", they're asking a particular question. You are more than free to look like an eyesore if that is the look you're going for. Of course if you feel unsure whether you actually can pull off a particular look and really and honesty want to know then PM me a pic or go to a food court/A&F etc. If you prefer the random chance of being covered in butter then press on to the "Do I Pass" thread.

Wow so much has happened in this thread. I have a couple notes, and I will make them fast.

I agree with OP, it does no good to lie to the posters in the do I pass thread. However, it happens A LOT. And we all know it.

That just takes me to the idea of, why the heck are people arguing over it? Or arguing over what part of passing is the most important or if you can really judge, etc? The idea of THIS thread is not rather or not people can or do pass, but rather or not people are overly nice and give crappy feedback because of it. They do, it is true, people have admitted to it, we have all seen it and that's that. Hands down. There is no argument or debate here.

We all seem to agree that there is far more to passing than can be seen in a 2d picture, but that is not the point of the Do I Pass thread nor is it the point of this thread.

Rather or not most women or few women or any women could use plastic surgery is also not the point here, so let it go and move on. Who cares if you've seen the OP post something you think is stupid or goes against what they are saying right now? Who here honestly can say that they have never once posted something that later they may have thought was dumb, or no longer agreed with, or whatever? Unless you've only posted like 5 times you probably can't honestly say you've never fallen guilty to being too nice, too mean or just down right dumb every now and then. None of us are perfect, so lets stop arguing about that too.

The point of this post is that it isn't cool for people to lie in the Do I Pass thread and rather or not we've noticed. Fact is most of us have noticed, most of us seem to think it's crappy and in the long run most of us will lie one more time. The end.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on July 01, 2011, 01:21:28 AM
so why does apperance become so important for women of transexual history?

This is not and should not be limited to women of trans history. Having spent a majority of my life being raised as a woman I will tell you, cisgirls are just as effing bad about it. They are just as wrapped up and tormented by the idea of appearance as transwomen are. Men are as well, both cis and trans, and for whatever reason we all like to act like it's some unique thing that trans community handles in some crazy fashion.

It is a universal preoccupation, not a transsexual one.

Quote from: Annah on July 01, 2011, 01:35:52 AM
You are the only one calling it a test.

But y'all the ones saying "if you really want to know that you pass do x,y or z". Even the term passing has overt connotations of passing a test, and really, if you can't see that if you're worried about passing means that deep down you're worried that you don't then i can tell you all the things I've learnt the hard way to my hearts content, but it won't help you. Grasshopper must reach understanding on her own.

All this passing angst is just pointless, let it go, stop being scared that you won't and guess what, you'll end up passing the "female test" even on ugly thursdays when you have your weekly electrolisis and a bunch of sketchers take an interest in you and start up the converstaion and one notices that you have facial hair, but they still call you love and darling.

I don't need to pass as female because I am female, regardless of my outward presentation.

Quote from: Cowboi on July 01, 2011, 01:59:18 AM
This is not and should not be limited to women of trans history. Having spent a majority of my life being raised as a woman I will tell you, cisgirls are just as effing bad about it. They are just as wrapped up and tormented by the idea of appearance as transwomen are. Men are as well, both cis and trans, and for whatever reason we all like to act like it's some unique thing that trans community handles in some crazy fashion.

It is a universal preoccupation, not a transsexual one.

We are not talking about beauty, we are talking about passability.

I've avoided the "do I pass" thread entirely. Passing is far too complex and situational to look at a picture and say this person passes and this person doesn't. appearance, dress, voice and how you hold yourself all play a role, but so does context. I pass pretty well at work because all of the staff know me as Rachel and She. Patients meet me that way and maybe they assume I am a fairly "masculine" looking woman or maybe they figure I am transsexual, but they are introduced me as a woman and they treat me that way. In day to day life most people don't look twice. If you present yourself as feminine they just assume. In another context, like if co-workers are bad about names or gender markers, it can make it hard for even the most feminine looking MTF.

My point is that the prettiest trans woman out there will have trouble passing in the wrong context, and they most masculine will pass easily in the right context. Looking in a mirror or posting pictures online and asking "do I pass?" isn't a very productive use of time whether the answers are honest or not.

This whole thread and indeed the one it refers to is one reason why I am slowly withdrawing myself from this place. I agree 100% with Gravities-Child. In fact if I may I will relate a small incident which happened when she was seeing the surgeon for here SRS pre-checks.

Gravities-Child enquired about a tracheal shave. She doesn't have a big apple but it is just about there. His response was "You don't need one. Only trans people ever use that as a marker for gender. Very few other people will even notice it."

Likewise eyebrows, likewise vocal pitch, likewise height, likewise just about ANY thing you all get so darned obsessed about!

NONE OF IT MATTERS!

You are what you know yourself to be. In my case that is female. All the rest is just eye candy and window dressing.

Sure it is nice to look attractive and feminine, but it isn't obligatory and judged by your standards about 50% of the natal females that I see everyday DONT PASS either! So passing is a delusion, and obsession with a dubious and superficial standard of outward femininity.

While I have sympathy with the plight of FtM's who feel that their options for surgery are limited, on the whole, for me sex is defined by what is between your legs. Gender is different. You can be whatever gender you like but it doesn't follow that your body has to look female for your personality and identity to be of female gender.

In the final event the only people who care about whether they pass or not are transpeople. Therefore to care about passing is by definition to fail.

So to all of you who have to ask the question my answer has to be no. If you have to ask then I am afraid to say that to me you don't pass, and indeed you wont ever until you stop asking. Sorry if that seems harsh, by all means disagree with and/or ignore it, but it is my genuine and honest opinion.

Quote from: rejennyrated on July 01, 2011, 05:11:39 AM
NONE OF IT MATTERS!

You are what you know yourself to be. In my case that is female. All the rest is just eye candy and window dressing.

Sure it is nice to look attractive and feminine, but it isn't obligatory and judged by your standards about 50% of the natal females that I see everyday DONT PASS either! So passing is a delusion, and obsession with a dubious and superficial standard of outward femininity.

I agree.  How you are perceived has much more to do with how you feel and how you present yourself, than how you look.  Unless someone is obviously masculine (a ridiculously square jaw, for example) then there's a good chance that working on presentation and feeling comfortable with themselves will do a lot more than make-up or changing clothing styles.