I am a 42 year old biological male who has just started coming out in the last few years. I am by no means even close to being all the way out. One of the hardest things for me to deal with is my lost childhood as it was lived as a boy. How do I become a woman when I never was able to be a girl? When I do allow my female side to show it come out as very girlish and not womanly at all. I feel like this frightened 12 year old girl who just wants to become a beautiful woman but doesn't know how. My counselor states it is arrested development as the girl in me stopped maturing at that age. Knowing why things happened doesn't make it any easier for me to deal with. All the things I missed like the cute clothes, the pretty room,  the sleepovers, the friendships and the comfortability/bonding that only girls share. Aren't these are all the things that allow a girl to become the woman they will be? I have none of those experiences. Is there anyone else who has felt this or am I alone?

Very idylic.

No doubt there are a lot of gfemales who are missing the same things.

There is no doubt you have a lot to catch up on, but you get that as you go forward, not by dwelling in the past.

Quote from: tomgurl24 on July 01, 2011, 03:45:34 PM
How do I become a woman when I never was able to be a girl? When I do allow my female side to show it come out as very girlish and not womanly at all.

I couldn't agree more!   However, I have found that raising this matter is quasi taboo in the mtf community.    Some people say that you should just look around you at the women your age and see what they are wearing and how they do their hair and just follow suit.    That is all very well, you can dress like women in your age group but if they are older than 15 then you simply won't to able to relate to them emotionally or socially.   To give an example you maybe a 30 year old 'male' and be able to interact almost normally  with males in your peer group.  However, as we all know what interests men and what interests women are two very different things.   
   Gender role socialisation is a very potent thing.  It is like walking in a fog, when you walk in a fog you don't realise just how wet you have become until you get in out of the fog. We learn what it is to be male or female by the way we are treated by others and by what society expects from us based upon our perceived gender.   Squirrel's recent thread showed that many of us despite knowing or at least suspecting that we were female from an early age still acquired a deep and sophisticated understanding of males' attitudes and thought-processes.   When you spend a great deal of time at an impressionable age living in close confinement with the 'enemy' you cannot help but come to understand them.   Often this understanding was crucial to our self-esteem, as boys are very, very alert to difference and difference is often interpreted as weakness and in male world no weakness will ever go unpunished.        I am sure that the FTM's picked up a lot of girl mores against their will simply to avoid drawing attention to themselves, risking alienation and awkward questions from peers, parents and teachers.
   So here we are 10 years and often much more beyond our teens, dressing and trying to act like a woman our chronological age, but crucially lacking the long 'training' period that every woman has gone through.   Let me share with you are personal story.   I was a member at a website where  98% of the members where women, the age range tended to be from late 20s to mid-50s.   I came out to these women from the start.  I was warmly received by them however, because I was over 18 at the time I insisted that I was a woman and wanted to be treated as such.  I didn't understand then that you simply cannot go from being say a 35 year old male to being a 35 year old woman it simply doesn't work like that, though sadly many in our community believe the opposite .     Unfortunately these women picked up on my lack of what a woman even of 18 should and would know, and interpreted it as a sign that I wasn't really female.   As a result all the 'she' and 'her' stopped and I was addressed as 'him' and even 'it'.   To be fair there were women there who did realise that the problem was that I was simply an inexperienced woman and what is an inexperienced woman, but a girl?

Women's conversation often contains two and even three meanings.   Women gained practice in understanding multi-level conversation during the pre-teen and teen years.   If you as a transsexual woman only ever appear to hear the first meaning and seem to take what is said at face value or mistake friendly behaviour for genuine friendliness then you may well find that women will start to question wither you really are a woman.  If you say that you are a 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, 55 yr old woman then women are going to expect you to think, talk, and comprehend like a woman of that age.   My advice is to swallow your pride and take the women around you into your confidence.  Explain to them that you never experienced growing up as a girl, that you never experienced any of the closeness and intimacy of sleepovers or hanging around with other girls.  Tell them how you hated having your haircut like a boy, or how you used to look over at the girls's clothes department and the cosmetics counters with deep longing and the emotional pain that you felt.  Ask them to think of you in a way like a daughter or a young sister.   Be honest, women will appreciate you sharing your thoughts and feelings.   By being honest with them you will have achieved two things (1) Any mistakes,any misunderstandings, any lack of social female sophistication, any mistake with clothes, hair and make-up will be attributed to your quite genuine lack of experience.   (2)They will be pleased that you didn't insult their intelligence by insisting despite evidence to the contrary that you were a fully-paid up woman.

I lived a really screwed-up childhood. I was supposed to be a boy but never really passed for one so I was never part of either "inner sanctum". Boys didn't quite trust me because I was not like them. Girls trusted me more but being presumed male that trust was also limited.

When I transitioned to full-time at 24 I knew that I knew next to nothing about BEING a woman so I surrounded myself with women friends and I just shut up and listened! I was accepted as just 'the naive new girl from the farm' and it is amazing how quickly one can become 'socialized' when one makes no assertions but simply watches, listens, and absorbs.

Hey Tomgurl24 I would not let it worry you much at all and heres why. Someone wise once said, "if you do not like something change it, if you cannot change it change the way you think about it".

You never know if coming out at that age would have been good thing. Life could have been a lot harder and you may have just skipped over some of the worst areas. Now you realize the changes and go from here on out as yourself and if I was you I WOULDN'T HOLD BACK.

There is no time to waste and as soon as you have some of those experiences you crave with friends and shopping it will be just like any other memory in your past and you will move on to wanting new ones and accomplishing new goals. You are still at a pretty good age to come out. I know lady's in their 60's and 70's that just come out.

I am relatively young and I have those same feelings you have about when I was 22 I came out but then went back into the closet and then wasted years after that, not really by choice but I was basically forced to hide it. Even wondering what it would have been like to be even younger and change. The answer is it is the right time now otherwise it would have happened earlier. Since it did now then that means that NOW is the best time for it to have happen and thats why it is.

I've had similar thoughts lately, especially the thought that I will never be able to be a cute 23 year old girl.  I have to face the fact that I am a 47 year old woman; if I am fortunate, maybe I can present as 35 due to looking younger than my age, but still, I'm not getting any younger.  My other thought is that I never had the social relationships with other girls that most cisgirls had, and I think that makes a difference in our social development.  This makes the support at Susan's even more important to me.

"Youth is wasted on the young." ~ George Bernard Shaw.

Quote from: tomgurl24 on July 01, 2011, 03:45:34 PMAll the things I missed like the cute clothes, the pretty room,  the sleepovers, the friendships and the comfortability/bonding that only girls share. Aren't these are all the things that allow a girl to become the woman they will be?

Not necessarily, no. Some girls had things like that, some didn't. Either way, I'm not sure they influence the way people grow up as much as is often attributed to. People are who they are, you don't need to have walked in a pre-defined set of footsteps in order to be yourself. You forge your own path.

What about all the girls who grew up in a very male-centred world, both acting like and treated like a tomboy? Those who learned to fix engines before they could walk, or spent their time out climbing trees, rough-housing with their male friends, getting into all kinds of trouble? I know a few people like that, and I can tell you they're no less women than girls who grew up in a very... 'girly' environment.

Often, the problem seems to be that people think that you have to follow a sort of authentic life script in order to somehow be legitimate. I really don't subscribe to that at all. Experiences help shape your view of the world, but they don't shape the viewer, in my opinion.

You didn't have a childhood you think you should have had, perhaps. But the one you did have has made you who you are today. So you don't have the experiences that made some girls into the women they've become... but you do have the experiences that has made you into the woman you've become.

The world isn't responsible for the creation of an individual, an individual is responsible for the creation of the world they want to live in.

Thank you for all the replies.  It's been hard dealing with everything as I started so late.  I just feel this void of almost thirty years in my life with no way to fill it.  I sometimes tend  to dwell on what was missed instead of what I have accomplished.  I do understand that I can't reclaim my past and I am who I am.  Of course this does not always make it easier.  This is all so overwhelming that sometimes I just wish I could go back and do it all over again.  I will try harder to focus on the person I am now rather than the girl I should have been.

Ok honey, fasten your seat belt. I have just turned 65 and only came out about 1 1/2 years ago. What you describe is a good part of when I have my GID attacks. I know exactly what it feels like. It is the early years in one's life, say up to around 16 that have the heart wrenching impact. With me it was so bad I initially felt as if I had been raped, abused and just forced over and over again NOT EVER to be who I am, a girl.
I'm still busy with it. It seems to come up like swamp gas. Leaves me alone for a while then some more tears and gut-wrenching, but it gets better/less with time.
Now, once you go on HRT there is one more thing to realise. It is said we then go through puberty and menopause all at the same time. AND I CAN CONFIRM THAT!
At my age I didn't give much of a hoot and put on heel ass-tight leggings and boogie. There is a lot of other un-grown up stuff and some folks about me really didn't like it for sure, but I got it out of my system, more or less. Like I made my own experiences.
After about 1 year (in my case) I feel a lot more grown up then girly. My (inner) now outer girly sure had her fun --- and tears of course too plus the usual teenage BS. It just happened, comming with your second now female puberty.
So, not to worry as the other posts laid it out rather nicely. There is a LOT of experience and knowing in what has been said already. Read it carefully please.
Honey, there is light at the end of this tunnel. So much so that my childhood now appears actually girly to me these day and when I refer back I can't help it to address my self as she and her which I of course always was in my head, not a lie at all.
Hug,
Axelle

Quote from: Laura91 on July 01, 2011, 04:55:19 PM
Meh...I don't waste time on things like that because:

1. You can't change the past (and)

2. considering the way things went for me once I moved and changed schools, I still would have been an outcast (for different reasons) but it would have went the same way.

So, to spend all of that time lamenting my childhood would be a massive waste of time.

It's very easy to say, and I'll happily say it makes perfectly logical sense.

But it's funny how emotional issues can prevent even the most logical thoughts from feeling true.

My childhood was screwed up in a lot of ways, many nothing to do with gender issues. I don't really have any advice on how you get over stuff like that. In some ways I kinda think you just gotta wait it out. You can try therapy, it didn't work for me but it definitely works for some.

I'm not sure there is any secret to 'getting over' stuff like what you describe. You just somehow keep going, enjoy life that you have now as best you can. I can promise you thought that you're not alone.

Asfsd

I don't think anyone is intended to be glib here. But we know that the only way to deal with the missed opportunities of the past is to put them behind you.

I always knew what I am. I've had a load of opportunities. Some I've squanderd. Some ignored. Some I've tried my best but lacked the strength of character to see them through.

But like tomgurl, like Axelle, like Laura, like you, I just had to put it behind me and live my life from this moment on.

I think it was Yoko Ono who said, My life starts here.

QuoteThe world isn't responsible for the creation of an individual, an individual is responsible for the creation of the world they want to live in.

That is an awesome thought Sephirah.  Is it  your own or are you quoting someone?  If it's yours I would love to quote you sometime.

Not getting to wear the clothes etc that I wanted to wear while important is not my main problem.    I can to a certain extent make up for that lost time now.    The OP may not have had the childhood she wanted and it is true that quite a lot of genetic males/females didn't get that either.    What is important to bear in mind is that by spending so much time in the company of people of our biological sex we have learnt how to cope and survive in that world.   Despite being female, my younger years have equipped me largely to cope with a male world.   I find this very distressing because I don't want to live in the male world.   I feel, when I am with men, like an actor giving an impromptu unscripted performance.  I find this so draining that I avoid males where possible.    What makes life all the more difficult is that I am painfully aware that I lack the knowledge and life skills of women my age.   
Imagine if I went around telling everyone that I could speak German fluently.   That would be fine as long as I never encountered a native speaker or a person who was genuinely fluent in that language.   If I did encounter such a person they would realise within seconds that I was and had been deceiving everyone and I would look at best a complete idiot and at worst a fraud.    Now, just imagine if I had been honest and said to others that while I was very keen to learn the German language I didn't speak it very well.  Any encounters with native speakers  of German would then be a positive and a great chance to improve my speaking and listening skills.    A native speaker can quickly judge the abilities of a learner and tailor their conversation both in terms of content and by slowing down their rate of speech.    If I had lied about my abilities or at least greatly exaggerated them do you think that anyone fluent in German would be very happy with me, do you think that this deceptive  - as they would see it  - behaviour would encourage them to help me become fluent?    I think that you know they answer to that. 

Let me share with you a personal story.   I was a member of a website where the membership was 99% female.  The age range was late 20s to mid 50s.    I was completely out to these women and the majority of them were accepting of me.  Other less accepting women, out of politeness, simply avoided contact with me.   As I was over 18 I naturally considered myself a woman, and expected to be treated a such.   I quickly noticed however that my friends - who took a keen interest in me and my welfare -  seemed to be patronising me .  They seemed to think that they were talking to someone 4 or 5 years younger that I actually was and I didn't appreciate this tone one little bit.    They seemed to view me almost like a doll they could dress up and play with, or that was how I thought of their behaviour then.      They weren't patronising me or insulting my intelligence, they were just responding appropriately to what they considered to be my girlish chatter.   I was being girlish and they were treating me like a girl.    To give you some background, I was at the time a first year student at university doing a four-year degree course, and as I didn't understand that while I was an 18 yr old 'man' in certain aspects, in others I was as green a woman as could be.   What had happened was of course the women at this website had picked up on this and where actually signalling to me that they still liked me and were prepared to help me grow and develop as a woman.  However, I misinterpreted them and thought that they were insulting my intelligence something  I found near intolerable.  To cut a long story short I behaved like a spoilt brat and alienated many , though not all, of my friends at that website.    That is why I go on about the importance of experiencing the teen girl years.  Those women recognised from my level of conversation and interests  that I was  a girl rather than a woman and quite a few  of they were quite prepared to help me.    This is why I advised above that you should be completely honest with the women in your life.    Women are not so status conscious as men, asking that they think of you as a girl despite being of an age to claim the title woman is to be honest and forthright., rather than the definite drop in status it would be in the male world.  Secondly, you are actually showing signs of maturity.  By saying to them in so many words:  'I am an adult 'male' but in many ways I am a female child', you are acknowledging that you have recognised that you are inexperienced operating in the female world and asking them for their help flatters and involves them and will in the end result in a much deeper and more genuine acceptance from them than if you had just breezily announced to them that you were once a man and are now a fully-paid up woman.     If you take this latter course of action once the mistakes that you will inevitably make start piling up and become more and more noticeable they are going to be upset and angry with you for deceiving them, and make no mistake you were deceiving them.   Be honest and have one true friend rather than deceptive or misleading and have 100 false friends.         I still deeply regret that I didn't realise then what I know now that as far as mtfs are concerned you can't move 'sideways' as it were and become a woman of your chronological years.  I alienated a lot of genuine well wishers because of this.


Additional:   Imagine that you with other women at work.  In the canteen one women shares the fact that she and her boyfriend are having difficulties in their relationship.   What do you do?    You cannot sit in silence as women regard silence as a sign of disinterest and lack of sympathy and caring.   However, you realise that you have never had a boyfriend and in past relationships you were always the 'man' and in this example you are expected to see things from the women's position.    Understanding that saying nothing is unacceptable you jump in and (1) Start talking about something you know very little about but feel that you ought to as a woman your age would know all about this.   (2) Instead of showing support by listening and asking gentle questions, you instead start lecturing this woman on how to solve her problem.    Either of these actions make you look socially maladroit and are unacceptable from a mature experienced woman.     Had you been honest with these female colleagues and admitted your painful lack of adult female experience at some earlier encounter then your silence would have been interpreted in a more positive light.  You have had no experience with this you didn't know what to say so you kept silent.   Let us say that you show byword or by  gesture and a sympathetic smile  that you feel for for your colleague.  However, gauche you are, this will not count against you.  Instead of talking about your clumsiness behind your back another giving you another black mark against you, your colleagues will smile at you and be pleased that you tried to help.   You  told  them the truth about yourself and so they don't expect too much from you.

Quote from: JulieC. on July 02, 2011, 12:02:57 PM
That is an awesome thought Sephirah.  Is it  your own or are you quoting someone?  If it's yours I would love to quote you sometime.

It came from somewhere in the recesses of my brain. I don't think it's a quote from anyone, but I haven't really looked.

There are some interesting thoughts in here, but the reality, as some have noted is that lots of natal women ALSO missed out on the stereotypical upbringings for any number of reasons...

I don't dwell on them and never did back when I came out all those years ago (well, ok, I knew where my life was going by the time I was in my teens although it was not until roughly the age of 20 or so that everything began to fall into place and that was more than half my life ago).  I was lesbian-identified by the time I was 15, and well, lesbians were not exactly common-place in my school (a few friends did later come out after some failed marriages but nobody was OUT back then).  Because of my internal feelings and external social activities (yeah, I could rock the baby dyke image back then), I would never have had a normal childhood had I been born without the birth defect...

As I grew older, the experiences became less of a concern...my legal assistants know I am in my 40's and have never had kids.  They don't know my medical background but they have no problems with the fact that I am lesbian and the joke is that if I ever turned up pregnant, someone better look for the turkey baster.  Yes, we do joke in that manner in the office provided there are no clients around at the time... 

Princess of Hearts raises the question of discussions where someone brings up boyfriend problems...well, ok, I cannot ever answer to how to cope with those situations.  I never had a boyfriend either.  However, someone asking me about that is apt to know that I have had more than my share of girlfriends and presume that there are some similarities between her straight relationship and my lesbian relationships.  They also know they have to filter the response through those lenses...

As another insight...had a lengthy conversation with a friend today while I was on the road.  She knows nothing of my medical history but is very aware that we are both people who tend to internalize a lot of stuff rather than leaning on others in times of crisis.  Neither of us have large circles of friends that we consider 'close.'  And when I say we don't have large circles, I mean you could count on one hand the 'truly close' friends and probably have fingers left over.  Some of her issue is the nature of her position with her employer but some of it is the same as I tend to run into...all too often, if I let someone closer than arms-length, it has tended to evolve into a situation where I got too kind-hearted and got burned or otherwise taken advantage of (which is the same thing that happened to her with someone she was letting stay at the house). 

So for all the talk in this thread about upbringings and things we missed, the point to be made here is that some of us still are in precisely the same boat as natal women.

 

This is a very interesting thread!

One thing I feel very lucky on is that I am simply me, my identity is based on my childhood, not against it. Every part of my personality is directly based on the things I went through and want to achieve. Yes, I want to pass as a beautiful woman, but at the same time, my career goals haven't changed, my dreams haven't changed, my personality will never change (but I'll just be more "confident"), and really, I plan on being the same person. Personally, I believe that's when identity seems to be the strongest, when someone isn't trying to be totally someone they're not, but simply trying to express themselves. It truly is depressing to look back on what we've missed; not only have I completely missed "girl" things, but I was a complete loser in guy form as well, and I never, ever achieved popularity or friendship in my natural male role to boot. It's what's directly inspired me to choose certain career paths and to an extent certain lifestyles that I have; for what I've lost, I have plenty more to accomplish, and I think that's the attitude that always helps me through.

With that being said, you have to realize that mingling with other ladies isn't usually the "big point" of being a different gender. Gender identity is usually more associated with the partner that a person wants to attract, and the personality deep inside they want to show off. If you feel like a girl, you must have some girl interests and thoughts in that noggin - when socializing, just talk about your past and your interests. With me, I have plenty to talk about, I'm a composer, author, screenwriter, avid food-and-drink fan, and I love to talk about impacting films or musicians, albums I enjoy, boys I enjoy, ect ect. If someone out there doesn't think those subjects are interesting or appropriate, they can take a hike IMO.

But to be honest, I've never really found a great divide between my boy and girl side, I'm simply "trying to be me" as my favorite singer and songwriter, Jade Valerie, would put it -

But yeah, that's my outlook. It may be different for someone who's spent decades hiding their true personality, using alter-egos to simply survive financially and emotionally, I'm not even 30 yet! So for me, transitioning is very physical to me and hardly anything more, except when it comes to sexual activity and simply being more "cute and confident". Physical looks are such even a pseudo-spiritual importance to me, I'm of Native American heritage and with natives and tribal peoples, things like hair, accessories, and identity factors are such an importance to the pride and soul. I have a very deep belief that appearance should reflect the personality, and I just can't wait for the day that I'm finally able to get my hair grown out again, and to get a few facial improvements - I do want a very majestic, accomplished look about myself!

And even physically, I feel like I'm very conservative in my transition. My main goal is to have a subtle combination of features that showcase me as a soft, caring, but ambitious personality; something that will instil a female nature to my look. Once I accomplish this using surgical techniques (forehead, nasal repair, possibly a few other small touches) as well as improvements to my skin, all I feel will be really "needed" is a majestic hairstyle, clothes of my choice, and confidence I'm confident I will get. Even as a girl, I still want a strong look that demands respect in some aspects - essential for my career. Not looking for a fake or wonky look!

Quotesometimes I just wish I could go back and do it all over again

Me, too. I fumble around with some of the stuff "guys are supposed to already know" and feel pretty stupid at times.
Of course, lots of cisguys didn't learn all that stuff, either. But my dad did. I'm sad we didn't have that bond.

It would also have been nice to have gotten to play football. Thankfully, there are plenty of new things for my old teenage self to try.
That's what I recommend. Find some fun stuff right now and enjoy the heck out of this puberty. It's a gift.

  My childhood was no picnic either.  I was the shortest and skinnyest kid in my 2ND grade class.  I, besides being a forcefully closeted transgender, was and still a late bloomer.  Elementary and Jr High was the worst of it, with the bullying.  High school got a little better because my height caught up and passed most of my classmates.  If I was to do over again in that time period with the knowledge I have now, I would probably do the same things because of the time period (late 50's Through early 70's) and the attitude of the people towards trans-genderism at that time. 
  My real loss was my early adulthood from discharge from the Navy at age 23 through to age 45.  Inadequate counseling and my own fears kept me from doing the real important things such as dating, marriage, children, and/or possibly transitioning.  Age 45-48 was the start of the "dead zone" to start dating and having a real long-term relationship with my generation.  You are lucky to be transitioning at 24!  You are doing something about it!  Double your age and add ten, this is where I'm at.  Let your childhood go!  It is what you do in early adulthood that really makes the mark!
  Joelene
 

I completely understand what the OP and Princess of Hearts are describing.  When I used to think about this, at first I would feel sad and bitter, but then that turned into anger.  I thought about how my life could have been and should have been, if society was intrinsically accepting of all LGBT young people.  Is that very unrealistic?  Before Europeans came to North America, most Native American tribes had those called "two spirits" who were openly accepted as the opposite sex, and even considered blessed by many tribes.  And this was before all of our social progress in recent centuries.

With that said, neither sadness nor righteous anger have really taken me anywhere, I've found.  While expressing them internally has been cathartic in some ways, it's done just as much harm by distancing me from our cisgendered society and a normal life in the present.  Nowadays I try to focus more on those experiences, both good and bad, that cis and trans people can share. 

Oh... and one more thing.....

We can live vicariously through characters in fiction.  Books and shows aimed at teenage girls (even though I'm 23) allows me to get a feel for the experiences I missed, even if they're not quite the real thing.  It's enough to allow me to move on.

We can live vicariously through characters in fiction.  Books and shows aimed at teenage girls (even though I'm 23) allows me to get a feel for the experiences I missed, even if they're not quite the real thing.  It's enough to allow me to move on.
[/quote]


I read a lot of teen girl fiction.   I am a huge Buffy and Charmed fan.    On YouTube RussianDoll888, TheStyleDiet,(aimed mostly at women but still good) and misstalker7 are all very good.

Additional: misstalker7's Summer fashions 2011 is particularly good.