i guess this is a question for anyone who has ever considered giving birth to a child and raising them without gendering, or someone who has already done that. even though i am infertile, and i identify as female, i just couldn't make my own child be a gender. i would want to allow them to explore that for themselves. i feel like assigning a gender to a newborn baby is just immoral after what i have been through. even at that, you could have a newborn baby presented in a gender neutral fashion. people will still ask "is it a boy or girl?" you may know the sex of the baby, but as far as i would be concerned, it is just a baby. so has anyone had experience with this or considered this? anyway, it really only takes lots of babies 3 years to reach a point of awareness of their gender. at least since the gender binary is still rigidly enforced.

I'm an androgyne, and I wouldn't consider trying to make my child appear gender neutral. The only thing I would do in terms of parenting is simply allow the child to explore things, like trucks, clothes, dolls, whatever, and do what they like. That's generally what my parents did...on special occasions I was forced into dresses, but I was mostly able to do whatever I wanted and I was happy that way.

I guess the way I see it, trying to keep a child in a gender neutral place is still a gendered effort...trying to balance out the masculine/feminine. It's just easier to let things be, and be there when your kid needs you, gender issues or otherwise. And if my child is trans, if my child struggles, I'll simply be as supportive as possible at that point.

i don't raise my daughter as any specific gender. from she was new-born i had both boy girl and genderless clothes for her, a good variety of toys, and generally treated her like a kid, not boy or girl. we're lucky to not have gender specific pronouns, so i've never talked about her as "she". still it was apparent already when she was 6 months old that she has typical girl mannerisms (and that's not just me looking too closely, she is the girl that i never was). when she was a little older i couldn't get her to wear anything other than pink skirts, even on cold days, she only played with dolls even when i told her i thought cars were much cooler etc.

when she was around 3 1/2 she had finally figured out the whole gender thing, and realized boys and girls don't always play the same games together. so she had a 3 weeks long phase when she claimed to be a boy and demanded to be treated like one. well, i still had lots of boys' wear for her, so i had no problem with this. i also would have loved to have a son, so i felt no discomfort with her sudden decision at all. turned out this was just a phase, and she soon went back to the dolls and skirts that i used to hate when i was a kid myself. when i tell her now that she once was a boy for 3 weeks, she doesn't even believe me

so, what did i learn from my experiences with my daughter? kids can often display their own gender long before they have awareness of it. they usually want to be treated as the gender they are (even a 1-year-old girl can demand that she gets to wear that pink dress, and refuse to wear any boyish clothes), all you can do is observe your child and give them the clothes and toys they'd like to use. and yeah, most kids are just as girly or boyish as their birth sex suggests, and wouldn't like to live in a genderless environment. so don't think you did something wrong if a girl's room is all pink even before she's 3. if she got to choose the toys herself, then that's what's right for her

Quote from: explorer on July 01, 2011, 07:33:59 PM
i don't raise my daughter as any specific gender. from she was new-born i had both boy girl and genderless clothes for her, a good variety of toys, and generally treated her like a kid, not boy or girl. we're lucky to not have gender specific pronouns, so i've never talked about her as "she". still it was apparent already when she was 6 months old that she has typical girl mannerisms (and that's not just me looking too closely, she is the girl that i never was). when she was a little older i couldn't get her to wear anything other than pink skirts, even on cold days, she only played with dolls even when i told her i thought cars were much cooler etc.

when she was around 3 1/2 she had finally figured out the whole gender thing, and realized boys and girls don't always play the same games together. so she had a 3 weeks long phase when she claimed to be a boy and demanded to be treated like one. well, i still had lots of boys' wear for her, so i had no problem with this. i also would have loved to have a son, so i felt no discomfort with her sudden decision at all. turned out this was just a phase, and she soon went back to the dolls and skirts that i used to hate when i was a kid myself. when i tell her now that she once was a boy for 3 weeks, she doesn't even believe me

so, what did i learn from my experiences with my daughter? kids can often display their own gender long before they have awareness of it. they usually want to be treated as the gender they are (even a 1-year-old girl can demand that she gets to wear that pink dress, and refuse to wear any boyish clothes), all you can do is observe your child and give them the clothes and toys they'd like to use. and yeah, most kids are just as girly or boyish as their birth sex suggests, and wouldn't like to live in a genderless environment. so don't think you did something wrong if a girl's room is all pink even before she's 3. if she got to choose the toys herself, then that's what's right for her

that's interesting, especially the part where she chose to try out being a boy for 3 weeks. most kids never do that kind of exploring, because the way their parents raise them, and don't allow any kind of fluidity in their gender.

I think it's great that she could explore herself that way!

It's fascinating how aware we are of gender, so early. Interestingly enough...as a transitioning FTA, I can't remember my earliest memory of knowing gender. Gender NORMS, that is. I still have a striking ignorance of them at times, a lack of understanding of what it means to be a man or a woman. When so many other people seem to be able to define these categories so well, and know with certainty that it fits them. I'm deeply curious, but I have no desire investing in finding such knowledge either.

But what I did know very young was that my body should be male, not female. I think I learned at age 7 that boys and girls had different anatomy. I knew before that that something was wrong, that parts of me were not right - and when I found out about boys' bodies, I was like "aha!"

It's all very interesting to me, hence why I'm making it my area of study and expertise at school.

Hi,

Just A baby , sorry,    they are, ...OUR....baby's,    they are our kids  ,  young adults , & now Mum's & Dad's of thier own children,

We have 3  that have grown up  & Wensday night we have now our 9 th grandchild, 5 young boys & 4 young girls,

WE ,  Jos & i     brought our 2 two boy's & 1 girl 36 ,35 ,33 ,up with out expections of you must only do what youv been assighed at birth only , We did not treat them any different, what ever was good for one was good for them all,  regardless of any one else.

They have  grown up pretty much in the way they should, our grand kids are doing pretty much the same & i have contact with all of our family members   16 of us. 

They choose what ever toys they wont to play with & my tools with in reason as to what they are , im a builder so youll understand where i come from , age,s ,   range from 2 days to under 15,

Of cause i prefer   girls ,  he he ....... well, im a girl so,,,   tho i have to be carefull i dont show a preferance to our girl's over our boy's,

Because that say's you dont give affection to all with in our family, equally.

...noeleena...

Chances are they will exhibit expected gender preferences when it comes to clothes, activities, so I wouldn't be forcing them into any roles or restricting them. 
We didn't with our two, and despite a lot of trauma along the way, they are now well adjusted adults of whom I am immensely proud. 
My son is FTM (explained a lot over the years!) and it was his  connection with his grandmother in the last few days of her life that showed me that being yourself is worth all the pain, and is the mark of being truly adult.  She accepted him fully, and loved him unconditionally regardless of what his name was.

Karen.

Raising a child without a gender might be as confusing for a child as raising one with the wrong gender.

Agree or disagree ?

Quote from: espo on July 03, 2011, 02:35:02 AM
Raising a child without a gender might be as confusing for a child as raising one with the wrong gender.

Agree or disagree ?

Agree.  Hopefully one day this will no longer be the case, but as of right now a parent will do more damage raising a child genderless.

Quote from: espo on July 03, 2011, 02:35:02 AM
Raising a child without a gender might be as confusing for a child as raising one with the wrong gender.

Agree or disagree ?

agree - I reckon the key is to be flexible. in regard to the child, to not be disappointed if they do go a binary way (if only because the pressure at school to conform is so strong), to support them in their decisions but also to show, by your own example the option of non-binary.

Quote from: espo on July 03, 2011, 02:35:02 AM
Raising a child without a gender might be as confusing for a child as raising one with the wrong gender.

Agree or disagree ?

agree. i don't think my daughter would be a happy child if i tried to keep her away from girly things, or boyish things, she likes some of those too without that making her any less of a girl. still, i wouldn't try to oppose it if she suddenly one day were something other than a girl, and i often encourage her to at least check out all the other choices

most people seem to feel safer inside a box, be it their own home or a gender box. i wouldn't want to violate anyone's right to stay inside their favorite box(es), but i do hope they'll at least make windows so they can learn about and enjoy the diversity outside

Juliet and PicaPica have pretty much nailed it.

I dont think I would have kids,
but if then I would keep it gender neutral..
I would still say "he or she" from what the biological gender is, but I would tell them that it there own choice to decide there gender and if my boy turned out saying he wanted to be a girl and I knew he where serious then I would alow him to be a girl.
there born one gender biologically, when they grow up they will deside what to be.
I heard gender identety is around 3-7 years old, I would try stay gender neutral, if she/he wanted a dool or a car for chirstmas.

I think it important that kids know the trust about our world so they dosent got in some kind "non gender famely and then get out and dosent understand why everyone picking it up in male and female" they should understand that the world is strick and it not always easy,
but it there own choice who they want to be.

I always wanted to have a very femme boy and a very manly girl.
Good thing I won't have babies poor things! lol

I think I'd take the route my parents did.  As a child I had both girly and gender neutral toys and clothes and I generally liked both.  If I ever have a child and they express a liking for something else I'd willingly get it for them as well.  I totally get the whole gender identity forming at somewhere between 3-7 years old as I seemed to do a lot of waffling back then and I think I identify as androgyne now.  I played mostly with boys at age 4 and it was awesome.  I continued to play with blocks and playdough and climbing trees and such alongside my occasional playing with dolls.  I gave up on pink by the time I reached middle school and really got into baggy clothing then.  My parents were totally cool with it all and I think they just still write me off as a tomboy, and that's alright.  I figure if it worked for me then it could work for whatever children I may someday have as well.

Quote from: espo on July 03, 2011, 02:35:02 AM
Raising a child without a gender might be as confusing for a child as raising one with the wrong gender.

Agree or disagree ?

I would say agree.  Children notice that there is a difference between boys and girls even before they might know what the physical differences are.  Raising one completely gender neutral might leave them feeling confused as to which group they belong to.  I'd say probably just raise them as the same sex they were born with but leave a lot of options open for them to explore neutral and opposing gender things if they have an interest in that.