(A quote from the ->-bleeped-<- thread, but this is a divergent thought.)
Note that this is a half conceived very distracted thought.

QuoteImmoral Minority

Every time I read that it annoys me.



I. AM. NOT. IMMORAL.

Society needs to understand that.
It needs to understand the pain and hurt of being wrong all our lives and being bald faced lied to that we are normal or immoral or it will go away or that we choose this.



Yes, I'm different from you. I've never liked sports and I could care less about your cars. I don't want to be included in your little games, and you can keep your power struggle. I don't care who's on top. Don't you understand? I'm not like that. It's not my thing.

That doesn't make me evil, that doesn't make me unpure. An no, it doesn't make me unsure.

I'm not a pervert and I'm not some freak.

I know what I am, are you sure you know what you are ?

Lets smile and be friends, leave the bigotry and the hate... stupidity at the door shall we?

You are absolutely, completely and totally not alone in how you feel. The part that frustrates me most of all is that each sector of society has some theory or idea on the cause and treatment of those who don't conform to their beliefs.  As I've said in another thread, it continues to amaze me how everyone knows everything about everyone and yet, no one ever goes to the "source" to get input straight from the horse's mouth.

Being transgendered, we've learned to develop thick skin. Naturally, this will never be a mechanism to fully shield ourselves from the harsh and often times, invalid, comments people make but it is something we've learned to use to defend our spirit from those who are closed minded and blind to ideas that reside outside the box unto which they confine themselves.

All this being said, no one......and I mean no one.....has the final say on what's right and what's wrong. We, ourselves and (should we choose to believe in a higher power) determine what is morally and ethically correct. No one should ever have the right to infringe upon the very nature of our existence.

this reminds me of something i've heard quoted many times in tv shows (apologies as i don't know who originally said it)... i think it kinda captures the mood:

"the definition of a sane person, is simply somebody who is not in an insane asylum."

Quote from: 4years on May 30, 2005, 01:36:11 AM
I know what I am, are you sure you know what you are ?

That sound so simply to that really strong. Has part of our transition, we can gain the ability to know ourselfs to a high extend.

Is part of our blessing or cursing depending on the eye of the beholder, but how many persons in this world can say truthfully:

I am me.
I like this and that.
I am my own being and I dont let society told me what to do with my body.

Immorality is the absense of morals, but whos morals?

Quote from: Dorian on May 30, 2005, 02:14:17 AMImmorality is the absense of morals, but whos morals?

Exactly my point! Who sets and defines morals? Who determines that we are "evil" and immoral people?

Actually, amorality is the absence of morals.  Immorality is the contradiction of morals.

And yes, "which morals", is indeed an important part of it.  Essentially, you can say something is "amoral", but you can't really say something is "immoral" without specifying which morals is goes against (or assuming so, as oft happens).

Quote from: Rose Dawson on May 30, 2005, 02:23:40 AM

Quote from: Dorian on May 30, 2005, 02:14:17 AM
Immorality is the absense of morals, but whos morals?

Exactly my point! Who sets and defines morals? Who determines that we are "evil" and immoral people?

well, no, Amorality is the Absence of morals; Immorality is Ignoring morals.

If i commit murder, that is Immoral, because i know it is wrong.

If a psychopath murders, that is Amoral because psychopaths don't see other people as quite real, and to them Morality is a set of arbitrary rules that they don't understand.

Armies try to induce an Amoral state of mind, making it easy to kill people.  Hence we have Conscientous Objectors, who see all killing as murder, and wrong.

To drag myself back to the context of this thread, people mostly see us as Amoral, hence they distrust our judgements in all matters, especially regarding the vulnerable, hence the weird accusations that all queers get about paedophilia, even though it's provably not so.

The Religious Fundamentalists see us as Immoral, and their argument is so weird i find it funny:
Gays and Lesbians are damned because they despise and deliberately mock the altar of God; but a Transsexual is worse because 'he' is the direct Agent of Satan, who changes 'his' appearance to lure innocent men into having sex unknowingly with another man, who cannot confess and be forgiven because they don't know.

Quote from: kitten on May 30, 2005, 03:07:35 AMThe Religious Fundamentalists see us as Immoral, and their argument is so weird i find it funny:
Gays and Lesbians are damned because they despise and deliberately mock the altar of God; but a Transsexual is worse because 'he' is the direct Agent of Satan, who changes 'his' appearance to lure innocent men into having sex unknowingly with another man, who cannot confess and be forgiven because they don't know.

Kitten - What group/organization is this quote from? Where did you locate it?

P.S. Love your signature line!

hehe, i just noticed something.  the backbone of a religion is meant to be morals, yet they all seem to be based on the "it's true because we say so / because we just somehow know" idea of blind faith / unquestioning belief, which itself is completely amoral, because it specifically asks a person to follow a set of rules or guidelines for no reason at all, without thinking about the whys and wherefores.

morality is a set of arbitrary rules.  never lose that perspective.  unlike your said psychopaths, i do understand a lot of those morals, and follow a lot of them.  not because "they are moral"... any moral you care to make up is, by definition, moral... but because they make sense in a good society.  there are, however, a fair number of morals that are a whole lot more questionable than that of murder.  and even murder is not a moral in some circles... for instance, in an army (personally i am against armies btw).

i have come up with my own version of that argument you posted up, kitten:
religious fundamentalists are damned because they despise and deliberately twist the altar of God to their own selfish personal ends; but a religious fundamentalist preacher is worse because 'he' is the direct Agent of Satan, who changes 'his' rhetoric to lure innocent men into committing dreadful sin against another person, who cannot confess and be forgiven because they don't know.

Can you imagine God coming out with a big booming voice saying, I give up! Consenting adults can have as much or any kind of sex with anyone that they want!!!  Religion would then be about physical sex and not spirituality and getting closer to God.    God is not going to say that because God wants our spiritual selves to grow.  After all its our spiritual selves that are going to travel through all the worlds of God for all eternity.  Our physical bodies belong to this one.   Because God want religion to be about spirit and not sex,  God sets up rules and boundaries regarding sex to remind us of it.  Its our responsiblity to make our lives about spirit and not sex and God has placed boundaries to show us when we crossed over the line and are making our life all about sex.

Therefore God is not gonna do that, wouldn't be prudent.

This is how I see the issue of immorality.

Quotei have come up with my own version of that argument you posted up, kitten:
religious fundamentalists are damned because they despise and deliberately twist the altar of God to their own selfish personal ends; but a religious fundamentalist preacher is worse because 'he' is the direct Agent of Satan, who changes 'his' rhetoric to lure innocent men into committing dreadful sin against another person, who cannot confess and be forgiven because they don't know.

Wow Svetlana, that is great. We need a great stone monument to inscribe it on.

Wow............I dont think i couldve said any of that better........ Im speechless.................

I'd like to reiterate what I consider the important part of Svetlana's post.

Quote from: Svetlana on May 30, 2005, 03:44:49 AM
... the backbone of a religion is meant to be morals, yet they all seem to be based on the "it's true because we say so / because we just somehow know" idea of blind faith / unquestioning belief ...

i've often thought of starting my own religion up.  it sounds silly, but seriously - there are other people who have done this (all of them started at some point and from someone, anyway)... so why not?

in fact maybe now's the time to begin trying to formulate such a thing.  based mainly on stuff i've noticed which doesn't make sense in other religions.  and then when my one gets too high-and-mighty, doubtless somebody else will make another one up based on what's wrong with mine.

i've a few general guidelines i would base the thinking on:
1) this religion does not pretend to be always right and provide all answers to everything.
2) when somebody or something is damned, that means that something is wrong.  ideally, nothing is damned.  damnation is not a designation - it's an error message.
3) if this religion does not change with time, there is something wrong with it.  if nobody wants it to change over time, then there is something wrong with what it has done to them.
4) no cheap word-association tactics, such as calling this religion "the truth" or suchlike other confusions.  if something is like it is, then there need be no trickery to hold it up as such.  if there need be trickery, then it isn't so in the first place.  words are meant to be useful tools.  it's pointless putting a screwdriver head on the end of a hammer and then banning screwdrivers.  this is a religion, and nothing vaguer!

well those might not be the best guidelines, but whatever, they're what i'm thinking at the moment.
again, it might sound silly, but i'm figuring that religion creation might actually become a valid career.  why not, after all?  it only seems ridiculous because nobody is seen to do it.  so by that logic, if i did it, then it wouldn't be ridiculous any more.  i'm seriously considering this now.  perhaps it might eventually become a way around how the world works at the moment.  well it'll be exciting, anyway.  i can think of worse careers.

Too late. I've beaten you there.

SIM religious philosophy

1.  You are your mind.
2.  The body is a physical manifestation of the mind.  Take care of the body, and take care of the mind also.
3.  All minds are inherently linked in a universal matrix.  Take care of others, and you take care of the collective mind also.
4.  Taking care of others means taking care of what is good for their body and mind.
5.  Each person is unique; therefore, what is good for one's body and mind may not be good for another.
6.  To be truly SIM, one must only do things which are good for the body and mind off all, and avoid the things which do harm.  If an action is good for one's body and mind, but hurts another, this behavior is not SIM.  Similarly, if an action is good for another's body and mind, but hurts the self, this behavior is not SIM.
7.  Know that when all bodies and minds are united with purpose, even mountains may be moved.

That is all.  Any details further than this are individualized experiences, and thus are not a part of SIM.  To be SIM is to realize how your experience relates to the collective total sum of experience in this universe.  One may be a member of as many religions as desired, and still be SIM, as long as the above guidelines are followed.

Currently, SIM has 2 followers.  One, if you don't include its creator *cough*VeryGnawty*cough*

To me morality is a simple thing. It's kind of like Issac Asimov' three rules of robotics.

1) Love God above all things.

2) Love yourself(A prerequisite for loving others), except to the point were that interferes with rule 1.

3) Love others as you love yourself, except were that would interfere with rule 1 and 2

After that everything else just kinda falls into place. We are all on a spiritual journey of one kind or another. We must strive to respect each persons journey and allow them to do so without interference or ridicule. Ahh what a wonderful world it would be if everyone did that, assuming of course they follow the Three laws. : )

Cassie

Cassandra Said - "Ahh what a wonderful world it would be if everyone did that, assuming of course they follow the Three laws. : )"

Remember that not everyone shares your belief in god     but I understand what you are saying 

Thought I would add something.  While trying to understand my dysphoria even before I knew I had dysphoria I knew I was different.  I fought that hard. It affected my self esteem.  It caused major episodes of depression.  I have come to understand that society seems to conflate gender dysphoria with some sort of sexual deviancy.  Well, we are not immoral, nor are we deviant in a negative or antisocial way....we may deviate from societies traditional bianary world view and we may not all fit in nice and neatly but immoral!? Nope, not at all.  As soon as I came to understand that what I was feeling and how I saw myself was not deviant, my depression and self hate diminished greatly....not entirely, but I'm not done yet.  Thought it was worth sharing.

Best regards,

Bea

There is nothing immoral about being trans. Its simply the way people are born. Its like saying my god! You must be immoral because you were lucky enough to born cis. Anyone who tries to attach right and wrong to things we have no control over is an idiot!

Quote from: Dorian on May 30, 2005, 02:14:17 AM
Immorality is the absense of morals, but whos morals?

I was one told that as atheist, I couldn't have morals.  Only Christians had 'em.