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Do the terms masculinity or femininity apply to androgynes?

Started by Pica Pica, July 06, 2011, 01:10:56 AM

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Do the terms masculinity or femininity apply to androgynes?

Yes
11 (55%)
No
6 (30%)
Don't know
3 (15%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Pica Pica

There's a 'how masculine/how feminine do you think you are thread' on the general section of the site. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96905.20/topicseen.html

Despite being in the general part of the site, there is no androgyne options. When questioned about this it was said that "I just thought that if you're androgynous then the whole masculine/feminine thing doesn't really apply."* Which seems a very good point. Are those terms at all useful or applicable when talking about an androgyne? Are there other terms to use? Can an androgyne be said to be masculine or feminine?


(*Although why there wasn't options for CD's IS's and SO's and other acronymical people, wasn't explained).
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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caseyy

I think it may apply to some people who see themselves more as bi-gendered. Me...nah. It just doesn't. I went through a little panic phase tonight where I thought because I'm transitioning to male-bodied I had to make my space more manly, lol. It didn't last - there's just too many ways to be "feminine" or "masculine." They're really very vague terms and honestly, super useless.
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espo

The problem is that the definitions of masculine and feminine are so sterio typical that its not even legitamate for ci people.
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Taka

they should apply unless one is truly genderless. but how they apply is beyond me. i still haven't been able to determine whether my own levels of femininity and masculinity fluctuate, or if they're constant and i'm just moving between or outside them. not that it actually matters, but it's interesting to observe
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Lisbeth

Based on Sandra Bem's original concept of androgyny (Bem, Sandra L. (1974). "The measurement of psychological androgyny". Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology. vol. 42, pp. 155-62), I would say that they do apply.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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VeryGnawty

"The cake is a lie."
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Padma

I tend to think of human qualities as, well, just that - human qualities... and they've been divided up, culture by culture, into what are considered male-norm and female-norm ranges, and then people mix them up in their heads with male and female. But to me, every human quality (whether creative or destructive) has potential to be expressed by every human, and it's just a norm-convenient convention to say this is how men are, this is how women are.

So I think masculine and feminine are fundamentally flawed/misused models even within their intended scope. They change from decade to decade, and from culture to culture, so they're just a convention. So it's up to you whether you feel that convention makes any sense of your own identity/qualities, and even if it does, there's no reason to assume the next person along thinks of them in same way you do, so it's a bit of a dead end. The only time I get annoyed about it is when one gender or other (speaking in binary terms for a moment :)) decides they "own" a particular human quality. Nonsense.

I write this as someone who identifies as female, but not feminine in the conventionally accepted sense of that term.
Womandrogyneâ„¢
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Muffins

Quote from: VeryGnawty on July 07, 2011, 06:56:21 AM
Oh, it's a diagram!  I love diagrams   :icon_dance:

<continuation of laziness>
I couldn't be assed typing/trying to explain what I mean :/
Though I feel I failed anyway.
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quinn

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 06, 2011, 01:10:56 AM
There's a 'how masculine/how feminine do you think you are thread' on the general section of the site. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,96905.20/topicseen.html

Despite being in the general part of the site, there is no androgyne options. When questioned about this it was said that "I just thought that if you're androgynous then the whole masculine/feminine thing doesn't really apply."* Which seems a very good point. Are those terms at all useful or applicable when talking about an androgyne? Are there other terms to use? Can an androgyne be said to be masculine or feminine?


(*Although why there wasn't options for CD's IS's and SO's and other acronymical people, wasn't explained).

Well, nobody asked me to include CD's, IS's, SO's, and whomever the "acronymical people" are that you're referring to. It's in the general part of the site simply because it's a poll, no other reason. I had intended it to be a poll for MTFs and FTMs, but apparently here at Susan's we're so worried about leaving anybody out that our polls need to have fifty options, as well as the "other" option just in case someone doesn't feel like putting themselves into a box that day.  ::)
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Pica Pica

Quote from: quinn on July 07, 2011, 08:49:39 AM
Well, nobody asked me to include CD's, IS's, SO's, and whomever the "acronymical people" are that you're referring to. It's in the general part of the site simply because it's a poll, no other reason. I had intended it to be a poll for MTFs and FTMs, but apparently here at Susan's we're so worried about leaving anybody out that our polls need to have fifty options, as well as the "other" option just in case someone doesn't feel like putting themselves into a box that day.  ::)

If it was intended for the MTFs and FTMs, stick it in the TS section - not the general, simple. If you want it general, make it open to all the generality.

As for 'acronymical people' - I just have this huge personal hatred for acronyms - and there are so many in the world, in gender-esque stuff and on the computer it bugs me...just feels to me that language is about communication and that acronyms are not - that they close the barriers of understanding to those not already in the know. I know barely no one seems to understand the term androgyne, but at least it's a proper word with vowels [NB - This just being a linguistic irritation, and not designed to be detrimental to anyone who identifies as anything with an acronym. PS I just used NB, better shut up ASAP]
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Taka

i'm just thinking... on this forum wouldn't a masculinity/femininity poll for androgynes have to cover variations like nothing of any, lots of both, 50/50, changes day by day...? as there seems to be quite the interesting diversity here?
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Muffins

If androgyny didn't include just a little but of fem and mas difference then it would be a really reeeaaalllyy exclusive term. I mean hair length alone can be considered a fem/mas trait.
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quinn

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 07, 2011, 05:28:04 PM
If it was intended for the MTFs and FTMs, stick it in the TS section - not the general, simple. If you want it general, make it open to all the generality.

As for 'acronymical people' - I just have this huge personal hatred for acronyms - and there are so many in the world, in gender-esque stuff and on the computer it bugs me...just feels to me that language is about communication and that acronyms are not - that they close the barriers of understanding to those not already in the know. I know barely no one seems to understand the term androgyne, but at least it's a proper word with vowels [NB - This just being a linguistic irritation, and not designed to be detrimental to anyone who identifies as anything with an acronym. PS I just used NB, better shut up ASAP]

Like I said. It's a poll, so it was in the general section. I didn't know you could have a poll in any other section. Either way, though, I really don't care. It's obvious that it was for MTFs and FTMs, since every option (except "other") assumes the person responding to the poll is either FTM or MTF. If you, and anybody else who isn't MTF or FTM, feel left out, then too bad. I would suggest you make your own poll, but you already did, so, problem solved.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Muffin on July 07, 2011, 05:04:26 AM
I guess I kinda view a bit like this....



It's not just one scale though. It's multiple scales for different aspects of our lives. You can be masculine in one area, feminine in another, and androgynous in yet another.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Pica Pica

This is my visual representation of androgynity



There is a meaning to it, but I'm too lazy to explain now.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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dustbunny

I find I express more what is repressed. When forced into a stereotypical female role my masculinity expresses and vice versa. I think if I was treated and lived totally neutral both and neither would express. Typically that's how I define myself (both and neither). As far as the concept of gender I think that's even more muddy than sexuality.
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quinn

Quote from: Flotsam on July 08, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
I think 2Pica made it clear that it struck him as a good question for this section after finding that your was just an oversite and placed in the general section.
The other groups of people that make up a large share of the people here at Susans's can feel marginalized at times for simple mistakes and I think had the tables been turned, the MTF and FTM people would have made a comment also.
Wasn't this all hashed out already? Wasn't the problem taken care of already? Why is it being brought up again? We don't care, we moved on yesterday after your first post on this thread.I hope your not fishing for an apology HAHA.

Wasn't asking you for your opinion on it. And no, I wasn't fishing for an apology. Just saying why it was the way it was.
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Muffins

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 08, 2011, 03:55:47 PM
It's not just one scale though. It's multiple scales for different aspects of our lives. You can be masculine in one area, feminine in another, and androgynous in yet another.

I don't see how my diagram suggests that it's not but .....make and share your own diagrams? ..I'm intrigued now.
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xxUltraModLadyxx

it could be, but someone identifying as an androgyne probably doesn't have attachment to the gender binary. i found that others will never fail to attribute a gender to you whether it is right or wrong.
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Taka

i'm usually androgyne, preferring not having to identify within a binary. but then suddenly some times i find myself primarily male or female, and those times i definitely wouldn't want to be ungendered either. so i guess it's different for different people, and for me it's just complicated
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