Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 02:15:03 PM
I am just trying to understand what is wrong with the word transsexual.

Well I can tell you what I don't like about it. The prefix "trans" indicates moving from one state to another, and while I can see how some people may think this, it is not true, at least not for everyone. I have always been me, regardless of whatever body I may be forced to inhabit for this life. I'm not changing anything about myself either, other than those things about a person that always change slowly throughout one's life such as one's outlook, beliefs, opinions, etc. Everyone has those kinds of changes though and who a person is usually remains mostly the same in those cases, so it makes sense to ignore those kinds of changes in context. Thus, fundamentally, I'm the same person I have always been, including my sex/gender.

I must admit that as yet I haven't been able to think of a better term but that doesn't mean that this one is very good either.

I don't understand the fuss what is a name? No matter what you call me I am still me as for a batter term how about my favarite "human"   love carlie xoxoxo

Kia Ora,

When it comes to the "transsexual/transgender" debate, how about a compromise ? "transsexder"- "transgenual" or perhaps "transsexgen" -"transgensex"  

Call me old fashion but I personally am quite happy with the good old girl/female/woman or boy/male/man label...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Annah on July 08, 2011, 11:45:35 AM
That is why I do not use the word transsexual either

I went through that phase for a while but ultimately, I fell like I'm stuck in the paradigm of the previously existing words. I had to go back to the premise "words mean things" and those two words already had pretty clear meanings (when stripped of the maneuvering)

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 08, 2011, 02:06:55 PM
I come at this issue from an old-timer's perspective. Over the fourteen years I've come and gone at Susan's, one or another part of the community has rejected other parts. Early on, a lot of CDs didn't want TSs here. Later it was TSs who rejected CDs. Now this "Borg collective" idea is all the rage.

The constant in this, that I have always reached for, and I know that I am on the same page as Susan in this, is that Susan's is a place for every member of the trans-community, whether CD, TS, MtF, FtM, androgyn, TG, or other. And since the beginning of my time here "transgender" has been the term used to be inclusive of all those groups.

For those who want to erase that term and split up the community that has grown here and other places, remember that the conservative right has been using the "divide and conquer" strategy for a number of years. Do you really want to do their work for them?

And I identify with these terms: Woman, TS, MtF, and TG. None of them excludes the others.

My position is that i am TS and that i am allied wherever possible with TG people and with LBG people.

I am not divided by them because I respect the language. Just as an intersex person is not a CD, and a androgynous person is not a drag queen.

Or perhaps more accurately, a transgender person is not (necesarily) a homosexual person, so they have different labels even though they (theoretically) are allies.

if a TG and a G/L can be strong allies while having different labels, why can't a TS and a TG?

Quote from: spacial on July 08, 2011, 01:21:50 PM
With respect Valerie, this is where you lose me completely.

Why would you want to tell anyone?

Why are you looking for a label?

This falls under "actions speak louder than words. You don't HAVE to tell society something verbally - they (WE!) make assumptions and it's human nature.

there's not a thing you or i or anyone else with our noblest intentions can do about it.

don't believe me?

Start a thread titled "Susan's, what do you think about Republicans?" and see what kind of answers you get.

or use "Christians" instead.

I guarantee you 90% of what is said about those people who are not those people, will be assumptions made based on perceptions drawn from words and actions. No one who thinks, for instance, that Republicans are bigots ever heard a Republican say "Yes, we're bigots, what of it?"

You may long for a world that's not like that - but it's not, and never will be, THIS world.

Quote from: Valeriedances on July 08, 2011, 02:15:03 PM
I am just trying to understand what is wrong with the word transsexual.

There's nothing wrong with that word or any other.

But we do need to be careful to always use terminology and attitudes that are all inclusive.

Our association is with those who have or had the same problems as we do. The problem was/is, how our assigned gender is out of keeping with our personal feelings and needs. How society relates to that and how society relates to our personal struggle to deal with it.

That problem doesn't change, no matter what stage of transision we achieve. Personal experiences differ, but essentially, the problem is the same for all of us, our assigned gender and the problems we all have in dealing with it.

My concern with this and any other of the many analysies which appear from time to time, is when they may seek to exclude some. When they may say that one section of our community is having specific problems which don't affect another.

If we are all in this together, as we should, then we share experiences, we share problems, we look for solutions and share our successes and failures. Those that have achieved, what most hope to, full transision, full acceptance, are still facing the same problems as those that haven't begun.

I will be happy with any term, as long as the emaphasis is always on inclusion.

Quote from: spacial on July 09, 2011, 07:02:34 AM
There's nothing wrong with that word or any other.

But we do need to be careful to always use terminology and attitudes that are all inclusive.

If I choose to use a term that MOST APPROPRIATELY describes ME and MY PAST MEDICAL HISTORY, I have ZERO obligation to use some 'inclusive' term that DOES NOT APPLY to me. 

QuoteOur association is with those who have or had the same problems as we do. The problem was/is, how our assigned gender is out of keeping with our personal feelings and needs. How society relates to that and how society relates to our personal struggle to deal with it.

Gotta disagree there.  But as usual, it will do no good to expound yet again since the minority voice gets drowned out on this subject as those in favor of the 'transgender' term choose to ignore the feelings, beliefs and experiences of the post-op.

QuoteIf we are all in this together, as we should, then we share experiences, we share problems, we look for solutions and share our successes and failures. Those that have achieved, what most hope to, full transision, full acceptance, are still facing the same problems as those that haven't begun.

I will be happy with any term, as long as the emaphasis is always on inclusion.

As noted earlier, there may be SOME measure of overlap, but the issues and experiences of the operative track are not shared with the person who has no desire for surgery (whatever the reason might be for not having surgery).  One group has a medical issue while the other is choosing to be variant...

When I first entered into therapy (obviously because of my mental disorder) I chose a therapist who had very good reviews from the T community.  She is lesbian and she is Mensa.  And she does her homework.

When the whole label thing came up she deferred to clinical definitions as they applied at the time (about six years ago.)  Some of this may have changed but here's how she defined the "TG Spectrum"

Fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-: Someone who crossdresses as a fetish
Crossdresser:  Crossdresses out of need but has no desire to change physical gender
Transgender:  Someone with "one shoe in each camp".  Needs both aspects in his/her life.  The most difficult place to be on the spectrum.
Transsexual: Someone who wishes to physically change genders.

That's a nutshell from memory.  She also said it's a spectrum and one can fall anywhere in between any of the four categories.  (Interesting thread on this from 2005.)  She then went on to say "transgender" is also used as an umbrella term so one needs to define the word when using it.

Personally I don't like "transsexual" because of the negative stigma it has.  I use "transgender" when referring to myself.

While I don't feel it's appropriate to share my... observations on this debate (I have no opinion one way or the other), I would like to pose a question if I may, just for my own clarification.

Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?

Transgender:  Someone with "one shoe in each camp".  Needs both aspects in his/her life.  The most difficult place to be on the spectrum.   [ Hmm I am not sure I agree with this.   I don't need to be male.   I do have a young man in my mind who lets my female side be the dominant personality.   However, this young male is wise beyond his years and as I have written before he gives me good sage like advice.   He advocates caution and not rushing into irrevocable things, e.g. not telling complete strangers all about me.  That is not to say my strong female side is goofy, or daft or thoughtless, she isn't.  It is just that she thinks that everyone will be kind and sympathetic towards her, which of course will not always be the case and this is where the young man comes in.]


Transsexual: Someone who wishes to physically change genders. [ While I am actively considering electrolysis or laser treatment I don't believe in FFS at all.   My circumstances are that full SRS wouldn't help me to pass any more than I do now.  I have come to accept that.  That is why I am very keen to define myself for myself and simply not buy into the pre-packaged, one-size fits all, TS package deal.  Having said that I would like to develop breasts and an orchiectomy (sp?) is not entirely out of the question, but it is at the moment the last on my list of possibilities.   I am still young so I might meet someone and want to have children with her.   You see I do imagine myself as being a lesbian partner/wife who just happens to be the co-mother/father of her children.   Well I did say that I was complicated. ]      

Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
While I don't feel it's appropriate to share my... observations on this debate (I have no opinion one way or the other), I would like to pose a question if I may, just for my own clarification.

Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?

good question.

In my experiences i have seen both sides of the coin in all perspectives.

For example, I am proud of my transgendered status. I have no desire to hide or suppress it and I am not ashamed of it. Matter of fact, I have been very blessed since I have come out of the closet. I also do a lot of activist work.

On that note, I use transgender.

On the other hand, I know other girls who do the same things I do. Who is proud of who they are and don't hide it and they call themselves transsexual.

Then ive seen girls who say its a birth defect call themselves transgendered and the same with the term transsexual.

So I really think its used all over the place.

Im really cool with both. Where I have an issue is when someone will say "transgender" or "transsexual" is the only way and if you use the other word then you really arent TS or you just got it wrong. That irritates me

Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM
Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "as a means to an end" but I suppose one could make a distinction between those who incorporate it into their identity and those who don't. I think it is probably more complicated than that though. Personally I have the same feelings for both words: I don't like either one.

Quote from: Sephirah on July 09, 2011, 09:56:05 AM

Would you say that this particular debate is split between those who see any sort of trans status as a means to an end and those who see it as an integral part of their self-identity?

I can't really say I identify with either notion.

For my part, I see us all as starting from the same point. For some, the problems are overcome, with struggle.

For others, they are never overcome.

But we all start with the same problem. We offer each other support and sympathy because that is how any of us will, at best, succeed, at least, survive.

I count myself fortunate that I have reached a level of satisfaction. I am pleased and proud for those that have reached the stage where they consider themselves fully transisioned. I offer all of my love and support to those still struggling.

.

I never say I am a woman. I just am. It's not something that I need to talk about. People accept me for the person I am- a woman named Julie. (some family members notwithstanding)

Did I have an inconvenient way of arriving here? Sure did. It was a lot of work, and I've paid my dues.

The only time I would mention anything remotely Trans is when I'm talking to my partner about community issues. I've had to mention my past only a few times when correcting my financial or official records. After this was accomplished, trans anything became a thing of the past.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on July 08, 2011, 12:58:41 PM
I didn't change my gender.  I changed my sex.  By the very nature of the medical intervention, there WAS a sexual component to what was done to remedy the birth defect.

I hesitate to say I changed my sex since the brain is biological as well, even the most important part of one's biological sex; I do agree it's changing some of one's biological sex. 

Is there a need to separate transsexual from intersexual in the first place, other than to "protect" other IS people from being lumped up with a far less accepted subgroup?

Quote from: Inanna on July 12, 2011, 01:59:41 PM
I hesitate to say I changed my sex since the brain is biological as well, even the most important part of one's biological sex; I do agree it's changing some of one's biological sex. 

Is there a need to separate transsexual from intersexual in the first place, other than to "protect" other IS people from being lumped up with a far less accepted subgroup?

well in the strictest sense of the medical terminology, intersex people are different than transgender/transsexual people.

Until it can be proven medically, that there is something tangible that shows why transgender/transsexual are what they are, you cannot merge intersex (which can be proven medically) to transgender/transsexual people.  Also, many intersex people do not want to be labeled as trans anything...not because they are ashamed of trans but because it isn't who they are...even medically.

There also have been a growing trend among trans people to be tested to see if they are intersex. I believe this to be that they are ashamed of who they are and they want something tangible to identify themselves with. Not all trans people who desire to be tested to see if they are intersex are ashamed but from the majority of girls I met, they have mentioned that they wanted to be tested to show their families it just isn't in their heads and there is something "legitimate" going on.

Also, on the other hand, there is a small minority of intersex people (myself included) who do not mind using the word "transgender" because it is something we identify with. I grew up male with breasts, an ovary and a cervix but now I have crossed over the gender spectrum so now I am female. When I grew up, I considered myself to be both sexes at the same time. So for me, being intersex and using "transgender" is something I don't mind.

However, an intersex person who always identified male or female and always will continue to do so will be offended if you include them in the trans circle.  Because the label does not describe them at all and merely make assumptions of that individual.

Quote from: Annah on July 12, 2011, 02:10:06 PM
well in the strictest sense of the medical terminology, intersex people are different than transgender/transsexual people.

Until it can be proven medically, that there is something tangible that shows why transgender/transsexual are what they are, you cannot merge intersex (which can be proven medically) to transgender/transsexual people.

There's more than one study demonstrating differences in the brains of TS from early fetal development.  Even if this evidence had yet to be found, TS people themselves wouldn't need it to know that they were born with this unchangeable condition.

QuoteAlso, many intersex people do not want to be labeled as trans anything...not because they are ashamed of trans but because it isn't who they are...even medically.
...
However, an intersex person who always identified male or female and always will continue to do so will be offended if you include them in the trans circle.  Because the label does not describe them at all and merely make assumptions of that individual.

I'm not saying TS should include IS, but IS should include TS (as a subgroup).

By the way, as TS my fully female identity has never changed.  I did not at any point identify with my external sex, I only suppressed acting on my feelings until I actually aware of treatment existing when I was 20.

Quote from: Inanna on July 12, 2011, 04:52:28 PM
There's more than one study demonstrating differences in the brains of TS from early fetal development.  Even if this evidence had yet to be found, TS people themselves wouldn't need it to know that they were born with this unchangeable condition.

There have been studies, yes. But none of it is conclusive yet.

QuoteI'm not saying TS should include IS, but IS should include TS (as a subgroup).

By the way, as TS my fully female identity has never changed.  I did not at any point identify with my external sex, I only suppressed acting on my feelings until I actually aware of treatment existing when I was 20.

I understand. There are many spectrums of trans people. You got trans who said they were always female and then aligned their bodies, you got trans who never gave it much thought until they got older or after a divorce, you got trans who identified as male for one part of their lives and then switched over to female for the second half (or vice versa).

The diversity is so strong, its actually pretty neat to see.

Quote from: Valeriedances on July 09, 2011, 06:28:01 PM
I am not proud nor ashamed... I can only just be me.

Worth repeating.