Quote from: Julie Marie on July 15, 2011, 02:09:12 PM
And these feminists don't understand what it's like being trans.  But trans women don't exclude them just because of that. 

Who cares if someone doesn't understand your plight?  As long as they are your advocate, that's all that should matter.  I think the exclusion is just simple pettiness.  These WBW extremists are bigots.  The Michfest, or any other gathering they choose to create, will not cause harm to the "chosen" by letting in people who may not understand their plight but are willing to advocate for them.  Most trans people are very accepting, except, maybe, inside their own ranks.

preach it, Sista! 

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 13, 2011, 03:22:20 PM
Not getting the issue, the shirts don't even say 'women born women' they say WBW - which could mean almost anything to anyone.

Really? I think it is quite obvious what they are using "WBW" to mean, especially given that they were selling them for that festival.

Quote from: tekla on July 14, 2011, 06:39:01 AM
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" - uh!

"Authorized Personal: Union Crew Only" is what it says on the door to my office.
....

You've just got your knickers in a knot because you can't just 'buy' your way in - the preferred way in America to make something exclusive.

(A) You think private work space is the same as "exclusive club space" to keep certain groups out?

(B) You seriously insulted me by implying that you know ANYTHING about whether I would buy my way in to someplace.

Can we keep this civil, please, folks.

I think the fallacy of the WBW experiential argument is that women don't have a uniform experience.
Growing into a woman is not some standardized procedure with required courses.

What about that girl who was kidnapped by that wacko and lived 10 years in a garden hut.
Would you say that she wasn't a "real" woman because she didn't have a "normal" socialization?

I was thinking about this whole WBW debate the other day and I thought about the fact that exclusion only makes your group smaller and therefore less important to society in general.  Except for groups like the richest 400 people in the U.S. 

We've had debates here where trans people want to separate from GLBs.  Yet I doubt any of those people would say things like equal rights and privileges are unimportant.  Practically every group has en element within it that wants those "not like us" to be excluded but this really accomplishes nothing in the areas of advancing human rights, ending discrimination and/or educating the public.

If the WBW advocates approached the trans advocates and said, "We need your help", we'd probably help but I'm sure there would first be a discussion that would include the fact their exclusion of us is a slap in the face.  And when we find ourselves excluding others, we need to remember this.  It's still very much open season on trans people.  And there are still a very large number of people who would just as soon see us all at the bottom of the ocean.  To change that we need strength we can only get in numbers.

Large drift off topic here.  The question I ask is, are they going to produce something similar again,in the future? They are obviously a US only company, so maybe people over there could keep an eye out for their products to see that they have learned  from this.

Karen.

I guess in my response I meant specifically womYn not just ciswomen.

If a ciswoman went around talking about how women shouldn't vote and should be back at home in their kitchens I am sure they would get kicked off as well.  I know it's not the same but I mean they are a conforming group of their own.

I don't agree with it, I just posted an obvious answer as to why it's happening.

Who spends all day caring about these things? Honestly? Somewhere, like 5 people are upset that you didn't like their t-shirt design. Okay. Whatever. Allow people their freedom of speech if they want it, which includes saying things you or I don't like. Is it hypocritical? Good question! I don't think they thought about it that much, because people grind out these t-shirts like nobody's business.

Don't like it, don't buy it.  How complex is that?  That it offends you is no reason to stop selling it, hell if they were cleaver it almost becomes a reverse endorsement.

I accept their apology, and by the way, they have excellent customer service.