In the passing threads I see a lot of attention to fine details. "I can see your hips", "your hairline looks feminine" etc, not a bad thing, but I sometimes wonder if we pay more attention to it then any cisgendered person would and is it really worth it. I'm not saying it's not important or that we shouldn't care or something, but I wonder if we put more effort into passing then any cisgendered person would even notice. Thoughts?

I'm going to say that,, because we are trans we might pay more attention to the different types of gender markers because we are trying so hard to not have them show. I've seen men with big hips and woman with broad shoulders. I wouldn't have questioned either of them. 

I completely agree. I think we pay way too much attention to details. I don't think men notice any of these things at all. Men don't notice the small bumps from your binder, and no guy has ever noticed a "uni-boob" or anything. The most I've ever gotten was "You look like you're getting buff" by my assistant manager at work. But that was after I started working out, and it pleased me. (Probably aided by the fact my binder doesn't make me completely flat). Even before T, I got asked all the questions mostly because my softer face made me look so young. Not because they didn't think I was a male.

Ahh, I was contemplating making a thread like this the other day after seeing another of those 'You need to focus more on passing!' comments that seem to be everywhere. Honestly, I get SO annoyed at the answer from some people to any problem anyone is having is 'You're not doing enough to pass!'

I want to punch people like that, because seriously? I do everything humanly possible to appear as masculine as I can, and I still look like a freaking woman. Why? Because I was born as one dumb-arse!

I think there is definitely too much emphasis put on it in the community, especially when a lot of what makes a person pass are things that can't be captured in pictures, like a sense of self-confidence and being happy. And I think especially fretting about the little things is a bad way to go; the more attention you pay to every tiny detail, and all of the effort you put into fixing every little flaw, is energy that could be better spent loving the good things about yourself.

All I can say is that anyone who tries to solve all of my problems by telling me I'm not doing enough to pass can go teach their mother to suck eggs.

my brother where chancing clothes here some days ago into swimming truchs to take a swim, I catch myself looking at him like "he actually got big hips, and small feets " I use to hate/love my hips because I find the shape pretty but also fat ass and womenly for a guy. but it kinda made me happy to see these signs in cis-gender as well.. I really think I where the only one payng attention.
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Max; well some are just born to pass way more than others,
I got very femenine eyes and no matter how the rest of the body is I got somehow a femenin thing over me because of that. it really nothing I can do about even if I cut my hair, and dress up all manly I still got these.

there also people who dont want to pass, I guess im kinda these type, I do like to pass as male, but I dont mind passing as a transmale. having people telling me I look to femenene can annoy me so much, it okay if I am going to pic a profil picture or a haircut and I ask for it,
but if people in general use statements like, "cut you hair, chance your clothes real men dosent do this or that" or something it getting to macho and steriotypeed for me.

I was thinking about this the other day; I went to the mall in my binder and a baggy shirt/jeans and when I looked in the mirror before I left I thought "no way am I gonna pass at all  " due to my rather feminine facial features but all day at the mall dudes were looking at me maybe like they were trying to figure out what I was, but not like I was a girl, haha and the lady at the dressing room said "really?" when I went to the women's side assuming I didn't pass...so despite my own criticism apparently I passed better than I thought.

In short yeah I think we see things that ppl in general won't notice or think about cause we're looking for the possible "flaws" in one's passing appearance.

I totally agree. It's similar to when I was learning music, and one of the things my teacher said was "if you play a wrong note or mess up somehow, don't show it. Most of the time the audience won't pick it up because they don't realize it's not a part of the song" And now, the only reason I might pick up a wrong note or mess up in a performance is because I'm a) aware of that little tid-bit and b) a trained musician. Although at the same time I don't look for the mess up, I just might hear it more clearly than others. So to tie this in, I'm pretty sure that the amount of attention and scrutiny by the general public is very low as opposed to ourselves, the trained musicians. We know the moves and notes better than anyone because we are currently mastering the instrument. I think alot of it is stuff people tend to pick up sub-consciously and now we are bringing those things up in our actual thinking.

Quote from: Natkat on July 19, 2011, 06:19:15 PM
Max; well some are just born to pass way more than others,
I got very femenine eyes and no matter how the rest of the body is I got somehow a femenin thing over me because of that. it really nothing I can do about even if I cut my hair, and dress up all manly I still got these.

I have to agree with this, although I'm not sure if I'd say "born to pass way more than others" (simply the way it's phrased). I just happened to be born with rather masculine features. All I really had to do was cut my hair short and I immediately looked like a guy. I would have to say that I definitely lucked out 

I think that if to yourself you pass, and if you're happy with how you look and you're confident in who you are, then ignore when people mistake you. I mean, of course I want people to see me as a man. I really really want it. But, being so early on in the process, I have to remember that there are still small cues that could give me away and I don't necessarily have control over all of them. And a lot of people don't do it to hurt you or hate on you, it's simply because they picked up something that led them to believe you were a female, when you really are a male (or visa versa). So love yourselves ladies and gentlemen, because how your see yourself is the most important view of all

I know a bioguy about my size that has bgger chesticles then me but yet i bind. Why? Because he has nothing to prove, nothing to hide.....................................................I think its like we have this secret and we dont want anyone to know. But we start getting paranoid that someone will find out so therefore we try to remove every trace that we were born male or female................................................As for passing i think confidence is the biggest thing. When i first started dressing male i didnt know i was trans i just wore the clothes i liked whch happened to be mens and i didnt bind.................................................what i mean is, is that people would correct them when they called me he and id say cant you see my moobs and they would reply well i just thought you were fat and stuff..............................................however i think for somepeople confidence or not there gonna need hormones and surgery to even think of passing.

I don't ever comment on the "Do I pass?" thread because my opinion is different then majority of the people giving opinions.  I see things differently I guess. Plus, I have no idea who I would piss off if I gave my opinion. Sometimes everybody says pass to somebody and I am like how the hell, a maybe at the most?  Not trying to hurt anybody just giving my point of view as an older person.   I also think sometimes that because I am older, my opinion is not as relevant because well... I don't know the fashion and styles that are popular for the 20 and younger crowd (just throwing out an age there). 

To me, looks are secondary to how a person carries themselves and their mannerisms.  I have walked into places and been called Sir when I was not trying to hide anything... no binder, shaved legs,  bed head and bummy. I have big hips, big butt and my chest is not flat.  I am lucky that my family never tried to make me girly and I developed as I was younger walking and carrying myself like the guys.  A few folks when I was growing up, said I walked like I was going to kick somebody's butt.  I never noticed it, but others do. 

So in my opinion.... rather then focus so much on looks make sure the rest of you matches the appearance you want.  That speaks just as loud if not louder then appearance.

I totally agree. It's similar to when I was learning music, and one of the things my teacher said was "if you play a wrong note or mess up somehow, don't show it. Most of the time the audience won't pick it up because they don't realize it's not a part of the song"
its true, while playing concerts last spring I thought acting confident, not being shy, and dont fall of if you make a mistake where the key to a good show, the same thing goes for everything ells as it seam.

I dont think I could jugde people correctly by passing on a picture, I know if I wanted I could take 2 pictures of myself, one where I would pose all female, and from the most femenine side and another where I would pose maculine and make sure to have a bad ass look on the face..

p.s. this might be a little off topic post but guys with femenine signs, are hot as X in my opinion,
thats why many ftm are hot, and we dont need to be sad about that part ..

I think it's common sense to assume we notice and are more critical about these things. I know even before I really put a lot of effort into passing people would still get confused, despite me feeling like it was all so obvious.

I agree. So much of passing cannot be depicted in a picture anyway. It's attitude, walk, mannerisms, voice...the whole package.

I did an experiment a couple of weeks ago at the park trying to tell from a distance whether someone was a guy or a girl. That was based purely on their shape. I was wrong a fair amount of the time.

Two points here:

1. We judge ourselves against some ideal male form. We run down a mental checklist. At some point on that checklist we either gain confidence or lose it.

2. 90% of bio males would not pass that checklist either...at least not the whole thing...and most could care less.

For me, how I gain confidence when it is running low is I go out and talk to people. If I'm really low on the confidence spectrum I'll go buy a guy's magazine at walgreens so the clerk knows to call me sir. It never fails. Sitting at home obsessing takes away confidence. Getting out, interacting with people and having them treat me as a guy is a huge boost.

Quote from: Dan-ization on July 22, 2011, 02:40:05 AM
There's a guy who works with me who I thought was a girl, until he used the mens bathroom and it made me question whether he was trans. I'm sure noone else in work has ever thought that, they happily use male pronouns etc. It's just a slightly young looking face that made me question him.

Same here, there was a guy I worked with who I was sure was a butch female. He even had a large chest that was almost unproportional to his weight. Whenever he talked or paged he sounded feminine. After finding out his name I wondered if he was trans. At the time my ftm friend and I both worked there and were open about ourselves and a female worker asked both of us if we wondered about him and we said we did. Then a different co worker told me she went to school with him and has known him since he was a little boy so there would be no way he was trans. Hahah.

Recently in the "Do I Pass" thread I have noticed a large number of people pick apart the same person saying he doesn't pass, that he looks like a butch dyke, then the same people reply to other guys pictures saying that they pass completely when I don't see the difference between the two.

It all depends on who you hang out with too. If you are around a bunch of butch lesbians you probably won't pass. If you are around a bunch of dudes you probably will.

And WTF is a 'female hair line'? Seriously guys??

Either way who cares as long as you're happy and confident. Don't think that you are going undercover, because you're not, or it will show.

I agree so hard. I think it's partially, when you KNOW someone presents as a gender opposite their birth sex, you tend to look harder at them. I saw a video of Kim Petras and another of several little transkiddies, and people would pick apart teeny-tiny little details that made them look "masculine/feminine", when on cissexual members of their gender it would look completely natural. I think we're held to higher standards of feminity/masculinity...

I'm told here I don't pass (my hat and glasses are apparently feminine). But when I'm out, I rarely ever get mistaken for female. Could be how I carry myself. I honestly can't tell if I "pass" or not because I see a very androgynous person in the mirror, and you get a little desensitized to it after a lot of time. XD

We may try too hard. -shrug- All in the attitude, I think.

Quote from: Da Monkey on July 22, 2011, 07:42:48 AMAnd WTF is a 'female hair line'? Seriously guys??

It's used a lot in the "do I pass" threads. Not my term.

Quote from: Da Monkey on July 22, 2011, 07:42:48 AM
Same here, there was a guy I worked with who I was sure was a butch female. He even had a large chest that was almost unproportional to his weight. Whenever he talked or paged he sounded feminine. After finding out his name I wondered if he was trans. At the time my ftm friend and I both worked there and were open about ourselves and a female worker asked both of us if we wondered about him and we said we did. Then a different co worker told me she went to school with him and has known him since he was a little boy so there would be no way he was trans. Hahah.

Recently in the "Do I Pass" thread I have noticed a large number of people pick apart the same person saying he doesn't pass, that he looks like a butch dyke, then the same people reply to other guys pictures saying that they pass completely when I don't see the difference between the two.

It all depends on who you hang out with too. If you are around a bunch of butch lesbians you probably won't pass. If you are around a bunch of dudes you probably will.

And WTF is a 'female hair line'? Seriously guys??

Either way who cares as long as you're happy and confident. Don't think that you are going undercover, because you're not, or it will show.

same here, I have seen bio guys wondering if they where trans, just by simple fact like being small, or having big hips..
I think im the only one noticing these kind of things..
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about passing or not it also really what your used too. people tend to look at diffrent details compared who wich group you are (like you say about the butch crow) and in wich country/culture you are in..
someplace it might be easy to pass because you simple as going with pants, would be somethin not considered to be normal to women.
where otherwhere it simple female clothing as anything ells..
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female hair line??
hmm guess the old thing about women having long hair and men having short
I personally think men with long hair are hot and women with short are too,
and I dont feel everyone nessesary pass better with long or short hair.
it more about how your hair fit your face.

Quote from: Darrin on July 22, 2011, 04:09:47 PM
It's used a lot in the "do I pass" threads. Not my term.

Yeah I know what you mean I just can't believe some people say that on that thread. It is just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

Very true. It's a lot easier to identify trans people when you are also trans - in fact I've done so just by hearing someone's name.

It was a trendy, unconventionally spelled name that wasn't around in the '80s when he was born - so I deduced he was trans, and he was.

Cisgendered people don't really pay attention to these things...

I'm definitely with everyone on this one.

What bugs me the most is when people nitpick on personal things, though. I'm having a hard time phrasing it right, so I'll just launch into an obnoxiously redundant explanation of (what probably is) something really simple.

On a different trans board I was on, someone kept harassing me about my hair. It's too long, it's too girly, it looks awful, shave it off.
In another part of the forum, there was someone SCREAMING about how confidence is key. CONFIDENCE IS EVERYTHING.

Well, chummy, my hair IS my confidence, damnit. It's the one physical trait I have always loved about myself, and I'm not going to go all GI Joe just because you told me I'm not manly enough.

I'M NOT MANLY AT ALL, DAMNIT. I'm a big, fat, flaming nerd who watches Star Trek, sews, loves his makeup and is MOST DEFINITELY A GUY.

I know there've been countless rants on here, and everywhere else, about people pushing stereotypes but it never stops pissing me off.

Obviously, if someone's saying "Hey, I'm desperate, I'll change EVERYTHING if I have to" then yes, tell them to shave their head and wear massive, baggy stuff. And if that's all that works? Well, it's better than nothing I suppose.

But for me, personally? I'd rather people say "What the hell is that?" and like how I look.
And a quick little by-the-way: My hair's actually even longer, where it's not shaved off, and I've been called gay 5-6 times in the past two weeks. Nobody's called me a girl in months so eat THAT, stereotype-obsessed-peoples.

Quote from: N.Chaos on July 24, 2011, 05:59:42 PM
I'm definitely with everyone on this one.

What bugs me the most is when people nitpick on personal things, though. I'm having a hard time phrasing it right, so I'll just launch into an obnoxiously redundant explanation of (what probably is) something really simple.

On a different trans board I was on, someone kept harassing me about my hair. It's too long, it's too girly, it looks awful, shave it off.
In another part of the forum, there was someone SCREAMING about how confidence is key. CONFIDENCE IS EVERYTHING.

Well, chummy, my hair IS my confidence, damnit. It's the one physical trait I have always loved about myself, and I'm not going to go all GI Joe just because you told me I'm not manly enough.

I'M NOT MANLY AT ALL, DAMNIT. I'm a big, fat, flaming nerd who watches Star Trek, sews, loves his makeup and is MOST DEFINITELY A GUY.

I know there've been countless rants on here, and everywhere else, about people pushing stereotypes but it never stops pissing me off.

Obviously, if someone's saying "Hey, I'm desperate, I'll change EVERYTHING if I have to" then yes, tell them to shave their head and wear massive, baggy stuff. And if that's all that works? Well, it's better than nothing I suppose.

But for me, personally? I'd rather people say "What the hell is that?" and like how I look.
And a quick little by-the-way: My hair's actually even longer, where it's not shaved off, and I've been called gay 5-6 times in the past two weeks. Nobody's called me a girl in months so eat THAT, stereotype-obsessed-peoples.

I cant posible understand how people would call your hair girly??
not from your picture, I mean its long, but girly??? I dont ever think I seen a girl with your hair in my life..

to try making it quick
* I totally love femenine guys,
* I totally love guys with long hair, trans or cis-gender it just cool (also just currently having a annoying discussion with a guy thinking only girls should have long hair and guys short, and that everyone having it long is gay -__- such a dramaqueen..)
* and I totally hate sterotypes from genders. (come one we are living in the new age)

I think many trans are easly very infected by these because they fell like proving themself alot more than cis-gender would
I remember when I where small I where easly infected by guys saying, "real boys do this" "your not a real boy if you do that"
"that is girly" I kept looking as maculine as posible, and kept being brave, getting some kind of respect when I just wanted to get accepted,
but in the end I found out people who jugde your gender on such simple thing and who only accept you as a guy if you act boyish and are a real man, really dont respect you as the person you are.
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I also got in akward situations where transgender people thought just because I where a guy I would be manly,
or anything obviously. people saying stuff like, "dont you want to cut your hair to something more boyish (I got long hair)"
and well I do like to cut my hair when I think it too long, but in general I dont feel why I should cut it?
because every guy is supost to have short hair?
why?
because..... well that just something guys do?
that so old fashion I cant take it seriously..