Ok,

Someone told me that some people do regret transition after going on hormones and having surgery. I do know that the WPATH requires 3 mo before hormones are given. Is this a good idea to do to figure stuff out? Has anyone done it? How hard is it pre T and surgery?

I still haven't figured out how they expect you to live full time and not, you know, *talk to people*.  Because the game's pretty much over at that point.  At least for me.  Seriously, people who've done this, what gives?  Do you just bribe a couple people that know you to say to your therapist "Yeah, he passed for this long" or what?

I don't even know what constitutes as "living full time."

I dress like a guy and pass as best I can (which is still not very well being pre-T).  But almost everyone, including my family, does NOT know that I'm trans, so they still refer to me as "she" and such.   So I don't know if that counts when no one knows I'm trans.  All I can do is attempt to dress the part.  I don't really want to bother correcting people (especially since they won't care and will still call me "she").
So I don't know if that's good enough or not.

Quote from: JohnAlex on July 22, 2011, 09:05:04 PM
I don't even know what constitutes as "living full time."

I dress like a guy and pass as best I can (which is still not very well being pre-T).  But almost everyone, including my family, does NOT know that I'm trans, so they still refer to me as "she" and such.   So I don't know if that counts when no one knows I'm trans.  All I can do is attempt to dress the part.  I don't really want to bother correcting people (especially since they won't care and will still call me "she").
So I don't know if that's good enough or not.

That's how it is with me. Do a lot of people regret transition after going through with it? Does anyone know?

I think that if you really think about it and transition it's unlikely you will regret it. Somebody I know took testosterone for 2 years I think. This person (not using pronouns because I don't know which to use) realized that testosterone wasn't the right thing. Although testosterone wasn't right for this person, they didn't regret it, and considered that to be part of their transition and understanding of their identity.

FFFUU I used they instead of no pronouns...drat.

They/ their isn't offensive is it? Seems better than ze/ zer.

I think it's a bit bollocks if you ask me, I'd consider that I am living full time as 'male' just that nobody else seems to think so unless they are friend or family and know that I'm trans. Another thing is that, ok you're on T. But top surgery has to wait like 6months/ more! So you're a dude, with a low voice, maybe a bit of face fluff and you get to keep the chesticles just to me on the safe side, for a bit longer. *shrug* No big givaway or anything.

Quote from: Kareil on July 22, 2011, 08:48:58 PM
I still haven't figured out how they expect you to live full time and not, you know, *talk to people*.  Because the game's pretty much over at that point.  At least for me.  Seriously, people who've done this, what gives?  Do you just bribe a couple people that know you to say to your therapist "Yeah, he passed for this long" or what?

For me, it was just being open to those close to me including family about transitioning and asking people to please use the proper male pronouns and call me by my chosen name. My therapist was quite easy going about it all and I had my letter within the first month of seeing her. I did remain her client for a year afterwards though for ongoing therapy, not all gender related.

Quote from: Darrin on July 22, 2011, 08:08:08 PM
Ok,

Someone told me that some people do regret transition after going on hormones and having surgery. I do know that the WPATH requires 3 mo before hormones are given. Is this a good idea to do to figure stuff out? Has anyone done it? How hard is it pre T and surgery?

There is no requirement for hormones that I know of.  I know there used to be but I think they changed it.  Some therapists or endos might require such but there are ones that don't.  If you worry you might regret it you should probably socially transition to see if it's what you truly want. 

JohnAlex

* But almost everyone, including my family, does NOT know that I'm trans, so they still refer to me as "she" and such *

Voice from the "other side" if you guys don't mind?

If you are NOT recognised as being your "gender of choice" you are NOT in transition, i.e. you are not in RLE.

It be the same for "us" (MtF) to dress in t-shirt, jean and sport-shoes (tackies) say you are on RLE and nobody sees "us" as female.
Granted if we do dress more femme, the jig is up and you got to be who you are (femme for MtF) in the COMMUNITY at large, be one of them. Do you hang out with cis-males and be accepted as male...?

For FtM it's bit more tricky as so many women wear "male" attire without being anything other then cis-females. Next step you might just be seen as butch gay, not exactly transsexual either!

If you still show noticeable breasts --- how can you pass for a guy... no way José!
And even using binders (my FtM acquaintances do pre-op) there was only one that passed OK, and he was on T since some time.
Your features and body contours change with T --- BIG TIME, and if not already looking very male to start with - (who does?) you will NOT pass. Period.

Also, are you sure you are trans? Only some time in therapy will filter through all that, IMHO. That's what the WPATH "rules" are about.

Good luck dude,

Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AM
JohnAlex

* But almost everyone, including my family, does NOT know that I'm trans, so they still refer to me as "she" and such *

Voice from the "other side" if you guys don't mind?

If you are NOT recognised as being your "gender of choice" you are NOT in transition, i.e. you are not in RLE.

It be the same for "us" (MtF) to dress in t-shirt, jean and sport-shoes (tackies) say you are on RLE and nobody sees "us" as female.
Granted if we do dress more femme, the jig is up and you got to be who you are (femme for MtF) in the COMMUNITY at large, be one of them. Do you hang out with cis-males and be accepted as male...?

For FtM it's bit more tricky as so many women wear "male" attire without being anything other then cis-females. Next step you might just be seen as butch gay, not exactly transsexual either!

If you still show noticeable breasts --- how can you pass for a guy... no way José!
And even using binders (my FtM acquaintances do pre-op) there was only one that passed OK, and he was on T since some time.
Your features and body contours change with T --- BIG TIME, and if not already looking very male to start with - (who does?) you will NOT pass. Period.

Also, are you sure you are trans? Only some time in therapy will filter through all that, IMHO. That's what the WPATH "rules" are about.

Good luck dude,

Axelle

Okay... what?  I think I'm kind of offended, but I'm too confused to say for sure, lol.

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AMIf you are NOT recognised as being your "gender of choice" you are NOT in transition, i.e. you are not in RLE.

Thanks for this piece of info, because that is exactly what I was asking about.
However, you know that I cannot MAKE people recognize me as my "gender of choice."  They are going to see me as whatever the heck they want to, be that male, female, or freak.  In my situation, people are more likely to think of me as the last two than as "male."
And if people are refusing to recognize me as male, then does that mean I have no hope of gaining "RLE" without basically moving to a more trans-friendly city?

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AM
It be the same for "us" (MtF) to dress in t-shirt, jean and sport-shoes (tackies) say you are on RLE and nobody sees "us" as female.
Granted if we do dress more femme, the jig is up and you got to be who you are (femme for MtF) in the COMMUNITY at large, be one of them.

Well, I'm confused.  This seems like a really strict and ridiculous rule. 
Who says what you have to do to pass?  If a pre-hormones, pre-surgery male-bodied person suddenly started wearing female make up and, say, dresses. 
I mean, everyone would stare and know that person is a transsexual.  Does "RLE" really mean doing that to yourself?
What if it's not a MtF's style to wear make up and dresses.  and they're really, say, a butch lesbian.  They're probably not going to pass.  But at least they are dressing true to themself and being themself.  instead of being something else to get "RLE."

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AMDo you hang out with cis-males and be accepted as male...?
For FtM it's bit more tricky as so many women wear "male" attire without being anything other then cis-females. Next step you might just be seen as butch gay, not exactly transsexual either!

I don't "hang out" with anyone.  I work and go to school. and I pass on the street, until someone hears my voice.  but then, yeah, all they probably think is that I'm a lesbian.  Which to some FtM's is not okay with them.  And I don't think it's fair to require them to do this (pass).
And even if I did, "hang out" with cis-males, I have no control over what they decide to accept me as.  Sure, I could tell them I'm male, but ultimately, they will think of me what they will.
And also, how is hanging out cis-males a requirement for RLE?  What if I don't like hanging out with males?  What if I prefer girl friends?  I am gay, afterall.

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AMIf you still show noticeable breasts --- how can you pass for a guy... no way José!
And even using binders (my FtM acquaintances do pre-op) there was only one that passed OK, and he was on T since some time.
Your features and body contours change with T --- BIG TIME, and if not already looking very male to start with - (who does?) you will NOT pass. Period.

First of all, I already know what you said about T. I'm new, but I'm not that new.
Secondly, I don't even understand why you're saying that, and pointing out all the negatives. and pointing out how hard it is to pass.  like, what's your point?  We know it's hard to pass.  I never go in public without remembering that.

And thirdly, if I don't want to wear a binder, then damn it, I'm not going to wear a binder.  And I will say "screw it" to not passing, if I don't feel like wearing a binder.  And for some people, they might never feel like wearing then.  What then?  Yes, they are doomed to never pass in public.  Does that mean they don't get any "RLE"?  Is one of the rules for getting "RLE" that FtM's have to wear binders?


I am just not understanding all these rules and this whole process now.  Everyone expresses their gender in a different way.  There is no right way to "pass."  Some people don't even care what strangers think of them.
Some people don't even completely identify as male, but still want to go on hormones.  what are they supposed to do?  their idea of "passing" would include dressing as a female.

I care that people think I'm male, but I don't care that people think I'm feminine, since I'm gay. and I like being feminine.  The hard part is being feminine while looking like a female.  It just gives off a female impress, not a gay one.  But nobody can tell me what passing is for me. If I want to show noticeable breasts, I'll show noticeable breasts.  Since getting "RLE" basically requires the whole world to know that you're trans, I guess there's no point in hiding what everyone already knows is there.

Quote from: Axélle on July 23, 2011, 01:28:18 AMAlso, are you sure you are trans? Only some time in therapy will filter through all that, IMHO. That's what the WPATH "rules" are about.

And lastly, but certainly not least.
I am highly offended at anyone who wants to doubt my statement that I am transgendered.  I told a few family members that I am transgendered, and that's all I was met with: doubt.  they think (or are hoping) that after therapy I will change my mind.  It's very insulting to have them not believe me.
I know myself.  I know I'm transgender.  and I know I don't need no therapist to assure my mind of that.  Now if doctors need a therapist to assure them of that, that's fine.

Well said JohjAlex, I agree on all counts.

I ended up having about a year and a half worth of 'RLE' before getting on T. But god I HATE this rule! Most of us aren't capable of 'living as male' without T, we can't use the guys room or ask people to call us male things, because all it's going to do is confuse everyone and put us in danger, all we're doing is living as 'that weird chick that gets angry if you call her cute' or 'that girl who looks like a butch lesbian'.

Personally I think our RLE should be determined by us, not by any specific set of requirements. It should be when we think that we're doing the best we can to transition within the boundaries of our individual family/society circumstances.

JohnAlex, I don't think that Axélle's post was directed specifically to you so much as it was generally addressed. I don't think she meant any offense. Also, for her last remark, pretty certain she was just listing that as a positive for the therapy sessions.

All of that said, I think you're trying to figure out what defines real life experience, right? I think in your last post you're including ideals about passing and what things should be like and all of that, but that can't be factored into real life experience. The Standards of Care require, for real life experience, that you live life fully as male (i.e. the people that don't know that you're trans just think that you're a "regular guy," or at the least you are able to live your life as a guy): that would mean that 24/7/365 you work, play, and go to school publicly male. This includes public rest room use. So at work you are male, at school you are male, and any other time you are male whether people know that you're trans or not. If there are some challenges, I think only sticklers, those who give credence to the nickname "gate-keepers," would hold this against you unless they greatly interfere with and affect the experience of living as a man.

This is not so much to see if you pass or fit someone's idea of what a man is, rather this is so that you can see as much as you can what it's like to be out in the world as a man and see if it is truly what you want. Consider it as a trial run, not a pass-fail test.

The SoCs also recognize that this isn't a possibility for everyone, which is why they also include the option of at least three-months of therapy with the idea that a professional can help you determine if this is truly what you want and that it will be of benefit to you (opposed to the regret that Darrin has mentioned).

All of this is really just to ensure that people are not pursuing this for the wrong reasons or that people are not pursuing this when they are not ready or not going to benefit, or worse that it would be of detriment to them.

At the same time, not everyone follows the Standards of Care, and not everyone follows them to the letter. At this point in time, they're largely guidelines and recommendations opposed to medical law, so to speak. Unless your therapist/psychiatrist/whathaveyou and/or doctors hold it up as such.

I am also from the "other  side", but also have a family member who is FtM. 

As said above, basically RLE is to see whether you are happy living as a guy all the time.  It takes a little while for the effects of T to start to show, so I would expect you would start while still only part-time, in the lead-up to full-time guyness. By then you should have a pretty good idea whether it's for you.

A  specialist Gender Therapist can help you sort out whether it is really what you need, or whether you only need to travel part way through transition.  More importantly though, they can help you prepare for the RLE, and things like  coping methods when things are less than perfect. I found that to be a major help, as did my rel.
Karen.

I don't pass worth a darn, but I use my chosen, male name when ordering stuff, booking a hairdresser's appointment, etc. I also buy men's clothing, and go to certain select public men's rooms (the ones that are one room with one toilet, no stalls or anything). I've come out as trans to the writing camp I'm going to, and I will come out at school. I'm not sure if what I'm doing is RLE or not.

I think the RLE is all based on what your therapist believes is RLE .... my therapist stated the minute I started binding I began my RLE.   I started wanting the world to see me as male.  She doesn't believe everyone has to know and that you have to let the world know you are trans.  It puts people at risk for physical harm when its not necessary. 

You just need to talk it over with your therapist.   

My therapist was ready to write my letter on my 2nd apt.  She wrote both letters for me -- surgery & hormones.  The surgeons I am looking at don't require that you be on hormones for a period of time before having top surgery -- just advise if you plan on getting on hormones to do it before hand as they can get better nipple placement when they see how your fat & muscles will shift with hormones.

Informed consent is awesome for people who know what they want, NOW, and just want to get it started and over with.
If it weren't for informed consent...I'd probably be six feet under.
I don't know of hardly anyone who regretted anything after the fact.
Then again...I never had a doubt in my mind once I heard of the term "transgender"

i think that the rle requirement is discriminatory. no one would tell a cis person that they have to look, dress, and act a certain way for three months before they're allowed to have a medical condition treated.

im pre t pre surgery and i live male full time. i pass around everyone i dont know and the ones who know me call me parker and most use male pronouns but some kids i go to school with dont use male pronouns because some of the teachers dont use male pronouns and they knew me as female.

My therapist required a certain number of sessions, but that was a personal thing even though she knew I didn't need it (she admitted it lol.)

As for passing pre-T, I passed. But I only passed as a 12-year-old. XD T helps a lot with looking like an adult.

I don't personally know anyone who regretted it but I know that doesn't mean much.

"If you are NOT recognised as being your "gender of choice" you are NOT in transition, i.e. you are not in RLE."

I'm so offended by this.  This is exactly the kind of attitude that I'm trying to persuades my family from thinking.  Basically it boils down to:  I am what I say I am and no one has any right to tell me differently.  If someone SAYS they are transitioning then they are transitioning.  Even if they don't pass 100% of the time to everybody doesn't make their transition any less valid.  For some transitioning is a long process and the very start could by with them never passing.  However they still transitioning because they are taking steps and even the mental 'invisible' steps count.   

If the quote meant to say something differently than how I interpreted, it please tell me. 

That said, I lived as a man for awhile before starting hormones with my high voice and passed about 75% of the time.  I think my height and broad shoulders helped with that but there was more to it.  The way you carry yourself and your confidence in who you are, be it male or female or between, has a great deal with how people see you.

My gender therapist wanted to make sure that I was comfortable in a male roll and I thought that was a good call on her part.