Quote from: N.Chaos on July 24, 2011, 05:59:42 PM
I'm definitely with everyone on this one.

What bugs me the most is when people nitpick on personal things, though. I'm having a hard time phrasing it right, so I'll just launch into an obnoxiously redundant explanation of (what probably is) something really simple.

On a different trans board I was on, someone kept harassing me about my hair. It's too long, it's too girly, it looks awful, shave it off.
In another part of the forum, there was someone SCREAMING about how confidence is key. CONFIDENCE IS EVERYTHING.

Well, chummy, my hair IS my confidence, damnit. It's the one physical trait I have always loved about myself, and I'm not going to go all GI Joe just because you told me I'm not manly enough.

I'M NOT MANLY AT ALL, DAMNIT. I'm a big, fat, flaming nerd who watches Star Trek, sews, loves his makeup and is MOST DEFINITELY A GUY.

I know there've been countless rants on here, and everywhere else, about people pushing stereotypes but it never stops pissing me off.

Obviously, if someone's saying "Hey, I'm desperate, I'll change EVERYTHING if I have to" then yes, tell them to shave their head and wear massive, baggy stuff. And if that's all that works? Well, it's better than nothing I suppose.

But for me, personally? I'd rather people say "What the hell is that?" and like how I look.
And a quick little by-the-way: My hair's actually even longer, where it's not shaved off, and I've been called gay 5-6 times in the past two weeks. Nobody's called me a girl in months so eat THAT, stereotype-obsessed-peoples.

Well said.

I definitely think being trans* makes you more likely to notice the differences between yourself and every other person out there. As soon as I found out my brother and I wear the exact same size in jeans (and he's a significant bit taller than I am) I stopped worrying about my hips or the way my butt looked in pants.

NatKat, I don't get it either.
I had hair like this back before I was out, and still got pegged for a guy quite often. Before this, it was shorter, messy and spiky. Still didn't look terribly girly to me, but I think there's some people that don't think "manly hair" unless it's a crew cut, bald, or a caesar. Or something like that.

And I love feminine looking guys, too.

I have my hair short cause I like it that way, but honestly I get compliments on how good it looks on me as a girl.  Hair doesn't make the man, or the woman, hair's just hair, clothes are just clothes, and looks are just looks.  It seems a little rediculous that if we can all get passed the genitals that we happened to be born with that we can still get hung up on what makes someone more or less masculine or manly. :-p

NChaos, your hair isn't feminine in the least (to me). You look like Nny without all the crazy and starving.

I know I never pass. But hopefully T will make it easier for me to do so. I haven't made any changes to my appearance that made me feel like I was "getting rid of myself", as one of the main points of transitioning is "becoming who you truly are".

Quote from: PixieBoy on July 25, 2011, 03:32:45 AM
NChaos, your hair isn't feminine in the least (to me). You look like Nny without all the crazy and starving.

I know I never pass. But hopefully T will make it easier for me to do so. I haven't made any changes to my appearance that made me feel like I was "getting rid of myself", as one of the main points of transitioning is "becoming who you truly are".

I wish I was as cool as Johnny! I can't see how you don't pass, I wouldn't question your picture at all.

The avatar is a fortunate angle, fortunate lighting and fortunate amount of fat. My most recent pics in the "Do I Pass?" thread apparantly didn't pass. I don't bind because my binder sucks snail schlong (grossest genital I could think of at the top of my head, all slimy and disgusting), it doesn't look natural with it on, it feels horrible, etc. I have a funny walk, and a light voice. All of this combined means no pass.

Damn, man, that really sucks.. I haven't checked that thread in a while, I generally don't because it pisses me off a bit sometimes.

http://i.imgur.com/sEswH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L6noK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PL0EZ.jpg
The pictures I posted in the "Do I Pass?" thread. Hopefully they're still working. They're URLs because I'm daft and forgot to resize them, sorry.

I totally agree with everything NatKat and NChaos have been saying!  I only cut my hair short recently because it's more convenient to me...my shaggier style was bothering me. Whenever people tell me "you should do this to look/act/BE more masculine" or "real guys don't XYZ...." I have two options at that point: 1. Tune out and smile and say "no." or 2. Start doing the exact opposite of what they're telling me simply to spite them and further push the outdated gender binary out the damned window.

Ive also been avoiding the "Do I Pass" thread because it automatically makes me feel more nervous about my appearance/voice/mannerisms (I mean hey, I'm a non confrontational guy and I get self conscious about myself...don't want to do something "unmanly" and get the crap beat out of me because of it.) Sometimes I also get the vibe that people get really disappointed in that thread even with positive feedback "you're passing pretty well, but you COULD do XYZ to look more manly...."

And the circle goes round and round ad nauseum.

Quote from: PixieBoy on July 25, 2011, 05:04:28 AM
http://i.imgur.com/sEswH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L6noK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PL0EZ.jpg
The pictures I posted in the "Do I Pass?" thread. Hopefully they're still working. They're URLs because I'm daft and forgot to resize them, sorry.

Yeah...you "pass." As if we're passing or failing an examination here.  But then again I'm not a nitpicky type going off about hairlines and bulges here and there and posture and the like. LOL

if guys ask why I dont cut my hair short like in the "boyish" way, I tell them the trust
1, I look way better with long hair than short.
2, I actuallly look more of a girl with short hair because my face are really femenine
3, if I cut it I look like im 13 and it really not funny if your flirting around unless you wanna get hit on by pedofiles..
--
I felt like sharing a little story, it my friends who is trans working on a nightclub.
first time I saw him he had sended me a invitation to come over for a talk, and I went there to meet him (very friendly guy)
well, to be honest we talked alittle and there where a singer having a concert,
however my biggest interest from the start wasn't on the guy I where visiting but his working mate.
she where very tall, kinda big, deep voice, and such thing..
I thought it would be very hard for her to pass,
but for a reason I felt very attractive to her (in non sexual relation) she smiled and made small joked, and I somehow felt it where nice
that even if she didnt "pass" or maybe thought about it, her personalety where still showing very clearly. I didnt felt her like a "man body" more like a big mamma troll like in the norwegian storys. (I hope she wont find that insulting)
I just felt it very very interesting way of looking at "passing"
if she had been just sitting there, all depressed, doing her make up over and over again, I would think she would try look like a female, but there she where just a big woman..

I don't so much see the pointers of things that look feminine to be a negative thing.
When we post pictures in the "Do I Pass?" thread, what we're looking for is to see what other people think when they look at us and whether or not we appear masculine to them. When we post a picture in there, we're setting ourselves up to be scrutinized.
If my bone structure is quite feminine, then that is something I'd like to know when I post in that thread. Having that knowledge, I could use make-up to change the appearance of my bone structure.
I agree that there are many things we notice that other people may not. That's simply because we know that the people we are seeing are FTM. I wonder what we could find in a cismale's photo. (;
Some people do get a bit cruel in the "Do I Pass?" thread, but I still see it as a valuable thread. If your goal is simply to see whether you do or do not pass, you can say so. If you'd like to know specifically what it is that makes you not pass, you can also say so.

Quote from: JoshuaKael on July 25, 2011, 02:44:31 PM
I don't so much see the pointers of things that look feminine to be a negative thing.
When we post pictures in the "Do I Pass?" thread, what we're looking for is to see what other people think when they look at us and whether or not we appear masculine to them. When we post a picture in there, we're setting ourselves up to be scrutinized.
If my bone structure is quite feminine, then that is something I'd like to know when I post in that thread. Having that knowledge, I could use make-up to change the appearance of my bone structure.
I agree that there are many things we notice that other people may not. That's simply because we know that the people we are seeing are FTM. I wonder what we could find in a cismale's photo. (;
Some people do get a bit cruel in the "Do I Pass?" thread, but I still see it as a valuable thread. If your goal is simply to see whether you do or do not pass, you can say so. If you'd like to know specifically what it is that makes you not pass, you can also say so.

well... big hips, small hands, round face, and big boobs, are the things I tend to notice on cis-males..
maybe there should be a "do I pass" for cis-genders as well.. LOL

do they pass? or not pass? thats the question.
http://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/image/Biographies/Moquet_Guy/GuyMoquet_7281.jpg
http://www.canonsonline.com/images/grad2009/law-guy.jpg

Quote from: PixieBoy on July 25, 2011, 05:04:28 AM
http://i.imgur.com/sEswH.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/L6noK.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/PL0EZ.jpg
The pictures I posted in the "Do I Pass?" thread. Hopefully they're still working. They're URLs because I'm daft and forgot to resize them, sorry.

Pffft. Honestly? You look like the kind of guy I'd probably ogle for hours. Actually, you look a bit like Watch Shop Guy.
I don't know him, but he works at the Dakota Watch kiosk near Ben's work, and I stare at this guy every time I see him.
I'm such a creeper.

i think the thing about the do i pass forum is that i don't feel like it's for getting an idea if "i wasn't really paying attention, or saw you from far away, or ignored that i can see _____, then i would give you the benefit of the doubt and assume male". i was under the understanding that if people are posting there, and especially people posting often, that they were interested in more scrutiny. not being torn apart, but an honest assessment of their appearance in the opinion of one or more people.

of course we can all ignore the little things about us that lean more towards female than male, but for people who are really interesting in passing as male beyond reasonable doubt, they wouldn't appreciate being given a pass when it really isn't true. that's why i feel a lot better telling someone that they don't pass and having them safely use the appropriate restroom or whatever for right now than giving them a confidence boost now only to have something unsafe happen because of it. obviously, passing in that way isn't what everyone is interested in, and you're perfectly welcome to go about your own appearance as you please.

^ Yeah, you're absolutely right.
I feel like a hypocrite, because I'm always asking my close friends the same thing (Is this passable, does this cover my tits, do I look ridiculous) and I get pissed as hell if they lie, even if I really don't want to hear the truth. Especially in this situation, where not knowing could be potentially dangerous.

I just get aggravated. And I think you're right on that initial comment, too. It's hard to think objectively, as if you were just passing by this person, when you've been (more or less) asked to scrutinize them.

people never really know what makes me non-passable..

oh well I know its something about my face and eyes, I cant really chance,
and then the femenine behavious and long hair,
but when people say long hair then it kinda strange because I pass worse with short hair,
and I cant really do anything about my eyes? well wear sunglasses all the time, then people show interest in my face,
what a bad circle..

Haha I saw my therapist for the first time today and she basically told me I look like a 12 year old boy; but between that or butch female I'll take 12 yr old boy happily.

Sometimes I tell people in the "Do I pass" thread that they don't pass. And I always feel bad about it, because I feel like I'm critiquing their masculinity. And I am so not the Man Police. I don't mean any value judgment...not that you need my approval, but there's nothing wrong with having effeminate or feminine traits in your appearance or personality. It's not bad, it's not unmanly. And some of you guys whom I'd say "don't pass" are extremely attractive.

It's just that if you're asking if you pass, I don't assume you're asking "does my appearance convey that I want to be seen as male?" I'm assuming that you're asking "do I pass well enough to be safe presenting myself as male in a potentially-hostile environment where I don't feel comfortable being out as trans?"

And yes, there are cis guys who would 'not pass' to me if they posted in the "Do I pass?" context. The difference between (most of) us and them is that if they feel their gender is in question, they can just open their mouths and speak in a baritone. Or pull out their ID. Or take their shirt off. Or whip out their dick and take a piss at a urinal. If someone questions our gender, and then they hear us talk in a high feminine voice, or they see that we always go in a stall and sit to pee, or they glance over and notice an STP device, or the bartender sees our ID and starts using the wrong pronouns, or if we always refuse to go swimming or be seen topless, or they hug us and feel something weird under our shirt...eventually the pieces start to come together.

So a trans guy who 'passes' visually, to me, is someone who doesn't raise the gender question in the first place - someone whose appearance says definitively "this is a man." Not "this could be a man or a woman, let me find out how they identify." Because if you're dealing with someone who cares how you identify and will accept whatever identity you assert, then it doesn't really matter - at least in terms of safety/well-being - if you pass or not.