Maybe we should start brainstorming ideas on what *could* be done, even in a dream situation, to make things better in these regards, and then find out from those ideas what could actually possibly be done? Might find out that far fetched ideas aren't that far fetched at all. My mind is pretty clogged atm so many brains are better than one, especially mine

"MichFest is specifically a "women's festival" but isn't for all women. I understand that with spaces for women, queer people, trans people, or people of color it's spaces for a specific marginalized group. In the US (generally) the ideal is considered being white, upper class, heteronormative and cis."
they rejected all the best women

Quote from: DevinJW on July 26, 2011, 06:29:22 AM
Maybe we should start brainstorming ideas on what *could* be done, even in a dream situation, to make things better in these regards, and then find out from those ideas what could actually possibly be done? Might find out that far fetched ideas aren't that far fetched at all. My mind is pretty clogged atm so many brains are better than one, especially mine

About MichFest? There's a counter-festival called Trans Fest in a nearby area at the same time.

Bitch's name isn't legally Bitch, it's her stage name. Oh, and MichFest is held on private property which from what I've been told is owned by gay men, but I could be wrong on that.

Either way, MichFest's policies have been screwy in ways other than just the anti-trans women policy. But uh...getting off topic lol

Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch."  Who does that?  Made me laugh anyway.

Musicians! What can I say?

Is MichFest some kind-of feminist related fest?

YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.

Quote from: Nick19Nick on July 26, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.

that's like a show on a trans person i saw two nights ago who said THEMSELF that you can choose your gender. word for word "I believe gender is something you can choose."

Quote from: Nick19Nick on July 26, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.

With all due respect, I feel you are being judgmental here. It would be nice if we all respected everyone's way of expressing their own transition. Yes, other trans guys have used this expression "becoming a man" to describe their own transition. Some still use it. You may not like Bono or his views, but that does not make him a (whatever insult you choose to throw at him).

Actually, I've noticed a lot of trans folks ganging up on Bono. He's a convenient target, being well-known and one of the only trans guys out in the media. I don't like some of his views, either, believe me, but he can choose how he sees himself as much as I and you do. A little class and respect - towards ALL of our brothers - go a long way.

Quote from: brandnewman on July 26, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
With all due respect, I feel you are being judgmental here. It would be nice if we all respected everyone's way of expressing their own transition. Yes, other trans guys have used this expression "becoming a man" to describe their own transition. Some still use it. You may not like Bono or his views, but that does not make him a (whatever insult you choose to throw at him).

Actually, I've noticed a lot of trans folks ganging up on Bono. He's a convenient target, being well-known and one of the only trans guys out in the media. I don't like some of his views, either, believe me, but he can choose how he sees himself as much as I and you do. A little class and respect - towards ALL of our brothers - go a long way.

This.

Sometimes attitudes like these make it more difficult for the rest of us to transition because we might get scrutinized by the community. I know I've felt that way.

I agree with brandnewman (apologies, not sure how else to refer to you) and Darrin. We all have different ways to describe ourselves, how we feel, what it's like to be trans, our transition, etc etc etc -- I see no reason to pick each other's words apart that way. Chaz Bono's transition and experiences are his own and no one else's, and people of all walks of life will take from it what they will.

"Become a man" (and it's variations) is a transitional phrase that is not owned by the the trans community alone. Cis males use the phrase as well. It's not a phrase that inherently implies that the individual was not male beforehand (that is obviously not the case for cis males), it's simply interpreted that way by different people when it is applied to a trans individual. It refers to a turning point in one's life where they feel they have come into their own.

Personally, I've used the phrase myself in my own head -- perhaps even verbally -- due to dealing with a number of things in my life which forced me to really grow up. I've always identified as male, and in fact had referred to myself as a man before that, but "being" a man and "becoming" one aren't necessarily the same thing to me: before becoming a man I feel I'm one only by technicality (I'm of legal age to be considered a man), but once I finish becoming a man (which I'm not yet finished with, regardless of where I'm at transition-wise) then being a man will be more than that and will say more about me. That I can handle things, that I have things under as much control as any man could, and that I have finally accomplished something and made it somewhere in the world.

No longer a boy: I'm now a man.

That kind of idea.

As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's. I haven't watched his documentary yet, and I haven't read his book, but from what I saw when I watched the Oprah episode I was under the impression that his sudden anger once he was on T was not T-induced, though there were some things said to imply it was being blamed. I took it as him finally dealing with so much that he had not truly dealt with before, a culmination of everything if you will, and having a bit of a temper myself I can imagine that combined with stress he was likely feeling may have been expressed through anger. It's a lot to deal with, and people react to such things in different ways.

On a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.



Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.

As far with all the problems with Max in the L Word go, sure there were a lot, but I really liked the way some of the characters were shown to be jackasses. Alice in particular gave him comments like 'not being true to yourself' and 'not a member of the community', and in once episode admitted she'd been a douche, and apologised. Another time, Kit told Max that he was giving up 'his beautiful gift of femininity' or whatever, because she simply didn't understand. However, while I think the discrimination was done to show that there's discrimination in the LGBT community too, the writers didn't show just why or how they were wrong.

Quote from: Noah G. on July 26, 2011, 05:36:57 PM
I agree with brandnewman (apologies, not sure how else to refer to you) and Darrin. We all have different ways to describe ourselves, how we feel, what it's like to be trans, our transition, etc etc etc -- I see no reason to pick each other's words apart that way. Chaz Bono's transition and experiences are his own and no one else's, and people of all walks of life will take from it what they will.

"Become a man" (and it's variations) is a transitional phrase that is not owned by the the trans community alone. Cis males use the phrase as well. It's not a phrase that inherently implies that the individual was not male beforehand (that is obviously not the case for cis males), it's simply interpreted that way by different people when it is applied to a trans individual. It refers to a turning point in one's life where they feel they have come into their own.

Personally, I've used the phrase myself in my own head -- perhaps even verbally -- due to dealing with a number of things in my life which forced me to really grow up. I've always identified as male, and in fact had referred to myself as a man before that, but "being" a man and "becoming" one aren't necessarily the same thing to me: before becoming a man I feel I'm one only by technicality (I'm of legal age to be considered a man), but once I finish becoming a man (which I'm not yet finished with, regardless of where I'm at transition-wise) then being a man will be more than that and will say more about me. That I can handle things, that I have things under as much control as any man could, and that I have finally accomplished something and made it somewhere in the world.

No longer a boy: I'm now a man.

That kind of idea.

As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's. I haven't watched his documentary yet, and I haven't read his book, but from what I saw when I watched the Oprah episode I was under the impression that his sudden anger once he was on T was not T-induced, though there were some things said to imply it was being blamed. I took it as him finally dealing with so much that he had not truly dealt with before, a culmination of everything if you will, and having a bit of a temper myself I can imagine that combined with stress he was likely feeling may have been expressed through anger. It's a lot to deal with, and people react to such things in different ways.

that how I feel, not a man, just a boy, growing up to be a man like any other guys.
-
about T, its kinda annoying, I also had a bad experience where someone I got into a fight with a girl who humiliated me to a party, and I am normally im very claim, but that day it where just too much and I slapped her in the face twice and didnt mention it to my parrents because I knew they would talk about "T makes your agressive crap"

I do admit I feel more "tense" and probebly more easy to annoy, but for me to see, T have only alittle effect on your agressive lever and stress,depression,normal anger, got more to say, I were way more agressive p-T in a periode where no one understood me than I where with T,

Quote from: dmx on July 26, 2011, 08:36:41 PM
On a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.



Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.

That is awesome. And damn good for him, youtube is a scary place sometimes.
And that's what I was talking about before. No, it's not the media, but look how many people he's reaching with that anyway, media be damned. More people have access to publishing to the web than have access to publishing through the media, and if there were more like him, with that many followers, think of the number of people that could be reached. 8D In some ways I feel like it's easier to sympathize with people like that too, whereas celebrities seem more unreachable, untouchable, unreal even.

QuoteOn a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.

personal post

Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.

Wow, this guy's awesome, and what he's doing for us/the community is amazing! -goes to watch all of his videos-

I know that the L word is not popular with Trans people, but its my favourite ever to do Transgender storyline specifically an FTM story,  for ME!.  A lot of it has to do with Daniella Sea, she is just so carefree, open minded and just suitable for the role.  I just sort of related to the Max storyline in a way that I can never with shows like Degrassi,  Hollyoaks, Boys dont cry did great, but felt it slow at the start. They were lots of unfairness towards Max, but I think that most of it was realistic, especially how his lesbian friends treated him and saw many other things, dating, getting a job etc as negative as people say it is to me its close to RL, there wasnt any sugar coating or anything. It wasnt at all negative as far as Im concerned, Max made progress despite difficult circumstances. He went from being a loner to having great friends, had a cool job, fell in love, was at peace with himself, the show could have done without that pregnant storyline, guess they wanted to capitalise on what had been in the tabloids. As the first tv show to do an FTM, I applaud it for paving the way for other how, they may not have gotten everything right but its a learning process.

Only watched a few Hollyoaks episodes before I tuned out, the story seemed to drag on and I didnt see anything that made me believe they knew what they were doing and had researched on Trans, of course saw documentaries on which they did interview and consulted a trans teen, but felt they needed to have done more. Anyone know how that storyline ended, would love to hear it, maybe I would give it a second chance,  dont think Jason/Jasmine is still on the show now.


Degrassi, really like the Adam story, Im no longer a teen so I cannot really relate to what he is going through. But I like that they show the family life, friendships and relationships and also Trans issues also. Some storylines do bother me though, like the Dave/Adam bathroom thing, Fiona/Adam. My body is a cage was an awesome two parter. Not to impose anything on the actress who plays Adam, but I just unrealistic that they let him/Adam go around without covering his chest, it defeats the whole purpose of dysphoria, most guys are dysphoric about their chest and wouldnt walk around with an open hoodie, when they can cover up, even if most people know they are trans. Its like as soon as Adam was outed he know longer felt the need to cover up or wasn't dysphoric anymore, just doesnt sound realistic. The make up people its not like they cannot do better to mask the chest, like they would if an actress was pregnant.  I dont know maybe he is just one of those less dysphoric and confident  guys, which is cool. I do like the show.

As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's.

I'm not sure that's true.  If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.

Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 01:18:06 PM
I'm not sure that's true.  If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.

I did not quite mean that in a spokesperson sort of way, more in the sense that what he experienced is what he experienced whether others have experienced it or agree or not, but that said I do see your point. At the same time, people in this very thread have said that they or others they know have experienced similar changes, and transition is an entirely personal thing as has been stated many times before. So in a way, even if he had experienced a text book transition, so to speak, there would be people finding flaws and stating that now people are going to think that "this" is what happens on hormones, or "that" is how someone who is "really" trans thinks, and so on.

I'm not even sure that we can say there is a "standard and normal" experience, so any "spokesperson" is going to present an arguably inaccurate view to people. Especially as they can only offer it in their own words, and a lot of things that anyone goes through can be difficult to articulate, let alone someone who is trans.

While he may not be offering the most pleasant experience to a lot of people's minds, he is offering his experience. I think it's counterproductive to talk down on him in the very same thread where there is a discussion about needing more people to share their experiences so that others can better understand this situation. He's willing to share his experience, and what he experienced was real and probably not that far away from whatever people want to call "normal" for this. That's something, at least. I think it's asking a bit much for every "spokesperson," for every public face, to only have what the community at large feels is "standard and normal," or at least "acceptable." Every one of them is going to offer something that will put an idea in the heads of non-trans individuals which will affect a portion of the trans population.

I suppose if we want to argue anything based off of Chaz Bono being publicly open about his experience it is that we do need more people willing to be publicly open or to educate so that the world at large can develop a clearer idea of what is going on -- not argue about what he has actually said or how he has worded what he has gone through. That's not productive, and could quite possibly be counterproductive if it makes someone second-guess or reconsider being open about this themselves.

Perhaps no normal, but there is 'closer to the norm' and 'so far away from it you need a telescope to see it' and I think he's in the second category.  The best spokesperson tend to be reluctant and not self-titled.  And it's not the first time, before this Chaz was trying to be a 'spokesperson' for the lesbian community.  Before that a rock star.  I just think there is a desperate need for attention, no matter who, or what it hurts in the process.

Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 01:18:06 PM
As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's.

I'm not sure that's true.  If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.

I haven't seen the doc or read the book, but I saw him on Letterman. He seemed to go out of his way to say that this was his experience and that he couldn't speak for others.