I've been letting my hair grow for almost two years now.  I also color out the greys as needed.  The beard shadow is vanishing.  My eyebrows are tweezed to feminine standards.  My ears are pierced.  And I'm a B cup now.  All in all I'd say the average person who sees me will see at least a feminine male.

Saturday I got a new set of gel nails.  The old ones were pretty beat up.  I haven't been able to get them to grow since HRT kicked in and I like long polished nails.  At work I wear gloves all day except at break and lunch and I've been able to keep them from the guys eyes.  But when I got the gels Saturday I asked for a French manicure finish.  So they use white nail tips. 

Sunday I found out there was no work so I'd be staying home.  Then on Monday my boss calls and says he needs to meet Tuesday for a meeting with the general contractor (GC).  Theses meetings can go up to four hours.  And I wasn't going to be able to wear gloves.  So I filed them down to finger top length but the white tips were still pretty obvious.  But I just couldn't bring myself to file them any shorter.  I convinced myself no one would notice if I was careful. 

The meeting lasted 4-1/2 hours and all seemed to go well.  When the GC left it was just me and my boss.  We were sitting on the same side of the table talking when I see his eyes lock on my nails.  As I moved my hands his eyes moved following them. 

"Did you do your nails?" he asked.

My face flushed.  "Uh, "

Then he asked, "Is she a cosmetician?"

"Yeah, I know" and I didn't know what else to say.  I was totally unprepared.  And when I went to the bathroom as I passed the mirror I realized that the bulky sweatshirt was hiding nothing.  It was obvious I had boobs.

He's already asked if I colored my hair and even said it looked nice.  I'm sure he's picked up on my chest, maybe even my eyebrows (but they've been this way since he's known me) and now my nails.

The problem is I can't bring myself to masculinize myself any more than I did yesterday.  I just can't do it.  And if you say me yesterday you'd wonder if I was male or female.  My guess is most people would guess female if there wasn't stubble on my face (electrolysis is today).

I've really thought about coming out but I that could totally blow up in my face.  So I'm just going to let this lie.

Now I'm wondering what else I won't be able to bring myself to do.  Not wear girl jeans?  Not wear earrings?  How far will I continue to push it?  When will it be so obvious guys on the job will stop wondering and start knowing?

Julie

It all depends on your environment I guess.

I work in IT and most people were pretty clueless about me and were shocked when I went fulltime.  That was in spite of the fact that I:
had very long hair (grows quickly)
hoop earrings
wore women's jeans
wore women's tops
women's shoes

The only things that were different:  name, makeup, and I do not wear a vest all of the time now

Julie you have got to the point where you are going to have to come out.  You have made some excellent posts asking excellent questions and they are all related to your own predicament.

You say that you can't come out at work because of the ramifications so why not look for another job and quickly and start living your life and not someones Else's Hon.

If nothing else why not sit down with your manager to discuss the issues as it's obvious that he suspects that things are not as they should be.  Yep I think that you've pushed your envelope as far as you can.

Steph

Quote from: Steph on February 21, 2007, 12:24:37 PM
If nothing else why not sit down with your manager to discuss the issues as it's obvious that he suspects that things are not as they should be.  Yep I think that you've pushed your envelope as far as you can.

I agree, though I don't know your manager of course, or what his reaction might be.

You may remember I was basically in the same situation - though not as female and pretty as you. Still, the breasts were starting to show, I was entirely in women's clothing, long coloured hair.. and I felt that I was creating feelings of deception, like I was "getting away with it," so I wanted to come out BEFORE bad feelings were created. And I did. And a few managers were surprised, one knew already, and one suspected... so I think my timing was good.

But you don't know what will happen, so it's a scary risk to take. But it SOUNDS like your manager is perhaps trying to give you an opening, almost trying to let you know it's OK. I mean, it doesn't sound like he was dissapproving, just more trying to say, "Hey look, you're not fooling me, but it's ok if you don't wanna talk about it..."

Kate

Julie I don't want to sound cras or anything and I certiantly don't want to be mean, and i have not been here that long, and I don't really no you that well, but What the hell are you doing? what part of your mind actually thinks that you are passing as a man? and worse I have no idea why you think you would be fooling anyone at work, even though it sounds like it is mostly men and we all now how slow and un-observant they are, but give me a break, your not fooling anyone. I work in an enviorment of agrresive men, and very keen, competitive and visualy obsrevant females, and you would not fool anyone there either.

It sounds and looks like its time that you make the leap. The in between stage can not last forever, and for the most part people hate this stage much worse than if you just allow yourself to be, the woman that you are. Are there any particlular reasons why you are hesitant or afraid to come out and begin the legal process of change? If your waiting for more test and validation, I don't think thats going to come, you are already there, its just really time to cross that line.

So to answer your question, you have pushed the envelope to far, its time for you to make that crossover. Your actually in a worse postion now than before transition, your a woman trying to pass and live as a man, and that can and will only lead to problems and eventually could end up being dangerous. Its really time that you formalize this whole thing.

-pass-

Quote from: passiflora on February 21, 2007, 12:56:51 PM
but give me a break, your not fooling anyone.

People who know you, who watch the changes happening slowly, apparently have an AMAZING power of denial.

I asked my managers how they POSSIBLY couldn't know...

"What about my hair?"

"I just figured you were trying a long style."

"What about the women's clothing?"

"What women's clothing?"

"What about the breasts?"

"I just thought it was middle-age fat."

AFTER I told one of the girls, she commented, "I see you're shaping your eyebrows now!"

Uhm, I've been doing that for a few YEARS now.

They didn't notice ANYTHING, and yet I'm apparently odd-enough looking to get an occasional maam, have my nephew think I was a woman and not even recognize me, etc.

Humans are funny creatures.

Kate

Yes, I'm well aware I keep pushing it and I've probably gone too far.  But I can't bring myself to revert to guy so this situation will continue or get worse.

In my occupation we don't work for the same boss for very long.  The one I met with yesterday was my boss until December then I had another one through January and then him again up to now.  And when I go back into the field I could have another boss I've never met.  And that's just with this company.

If they lay me off because of no work then I'll end up with another contractor and, if I came out at this company, I'll probably most likely have to do the same at the next and start the whole process all over.  I can assure you, few if any contractors have any policies in place for this sort of thing.  And every company I go to could simply lay me off due to lack of work.  That is never challenged.

At the union level, I'd have to do much the same thing, start from scratch and again I doubt they have any policies in place to protect me from discrimination, hazing or whatever else I'd be subject to.  And I can guarantee you, construction workers are some of the most homophobic, transphobic people you'll ever meet.

As far as starting a new job, if I work to my 58th birthday (April 2009) I'll be fully covered medically and receive 92% of my pension.  I could live on that okay.  If I retire now I'll have to pay a portion of my medical insurance and I'll get 8% less in pension.  That could make things tough, especially if I had any big medical bills.

I know I'm ignoring something that probably has to be addressed but I keep asking myself, "Why do I have to tell anyone?"  If they suspect or even if they think they know, if I haven't admitted to it what are they going to do?  Lay me off?  Maybe.  But if I come out I'll almost surely get laid off.  Then I'd go back to the union hall and everyone would know.  And each contractor I go to will find some way to get rid of me because I'm a distraction.  This is almost a for certain.  This is why I don't want to come out at work. 

Sure, I could sue them all, if I had any real proof.  Illinois has anti-discrimination laws in effect for transgender people.  But the work situation is very bad now and all any contractor has to say was "We had no work".  I'd be hard pressed to prove discrimination.

A friend of mine works in the corporate world and she will soon be coming out.  She has people in her company who are working with her to help her.  There is a diversity group in the company.  They have policies established and she's helping fine tune them for TSs.  So coming out for her is just a matter of dealing with the occasional sneer or snicker.  She will be protected by the company she works for and people who harrass her can be fired.  I have nothing like that.  In fact I'd bet most companies I would work for would want me gone, from the top down.  Guys would be encouraged to haze me so I'll quit.  It's not a pretty picture for us in construction.

So I'll keep doing what I'm doing.  People might wonder or even know.  As long as I don't admit it, I'm safer than if I did.

Julie

Julie, let me give you a couple of tips for success.

Do the guys genuinely like you as a person or do they merely tolerate your presense because they presume you are male?  If the genuinely like you, your chances for a successful transition (regardless of job) is much higher.

If you feel they may discriminate, you can start collecting evidence that they see you as doing a good job NOW.  If after coming out, there's a sharp contrast in the amount of work, it will be much easier to prove discrimination.  If you have something from them saying how great they think you are beforehand, then that will be really good.

Melissa

Julie,

Don't come out.  Let them think what they will.  But don't come out.  I understand how this all works for you.  As soon as the word is out that you are officially TS, you may not even get hired on that next job.  They don't need a reason.  And as you say, they can lay you off, even when their hiring.  Yes, there are union safeguards that are supposed to prevent this, but you and I know they get around them anytime they want.  Just be cool... bide your time.  You can not have French tip nails... get rid of 'em!  You'll be fine.

You know who you are.  Your friends know who you are.  We know who you are.  Who cares what the blasted construction workers think?  REALLY?

Now... let's think through one other item on your list.... exactly how long do you HAVE to work to get your pension... what if you were laid off 6 months prior and couldn't find work?  Or... what if you took a medical leave 6 months prior to that date?  Could you still not retire at that magic time and collect full benefits?  So, if this were to work for you, you'd only have 18 months to wait.

My best to you.

Cindi

Quoteit sounds like it is mostly men and we all now how slow and un-observant they are,

Why, thank you very much. Always nice to be appreciated. Now, as a slow and unobservant person, my I point you towards my fast observation concerning your use of the English language?
Sorry, had to bitch about that one.

As for coming out: Well.. I'd say I'm with Cindi, on this one. I don't know at what age you wish to retire, but be it sixty, you'd just have to wait a two years or so. Two years in which anything may happen, and if people then suspect you to be TG, well.. Be open about it then. After all; if they don't know, it dun't harm, right? And if they do suspect, they must at least know something about it, so then you can at least enter conversation.
While all this may be happening, your clock keeps ticking. Now; I'm from the Netherlands, so I don't quite understand how gender, and changing thereof, could get you fired. I do know that denial will make people pissed off, but not telling won't. If they then ask you why you never said, you can answer with them not having asked.

So I say: Don't throw it on the long board, but don't outright deny it, either. Just let it pass.

Now, I know I'm inexperienced in this sort of thing, but people do take lies seriously. However, most people also appreciate silence, things not said about personal lives. They'll respect silence, but not lies.

I have to agree with Cindi ** Hiya ** if you go to work and look half as good as you do in your pictures the guys you work with are idiots and will never figure it out on there own. Before I went full time I took a patient down to radiology late one night, the guy [what I would call obviously Gay] pulls me close to whisper in my ear "you'll make a wonderful woman" pushes me away and gives me a wink. He was the only person that picked up on anything. Everyone else although not surprised were clueless some of the women even commented about my breast asking if I had implants when I told them I had been growing my own [that sounded funny] they couldn't remember seeing them. I guess scrubs hide alot.

Julie,
Is this the same boss you've been writing about?  If so, it sounds like he's been really good to you.  Maybe he does not have a problem with it and was opening a door for you to talk to him.

However, if you're that close, why blow it all?  I agree with Cindy.  I know you can hang in there a little while longer.  Think how much freer you will be if you do.

Let us know how we can help.

Kristi

Hi:

I stopped wearing any male clothes in 2003, even at work. I wear "mannish" looking women's clothes, like shirts and pants. The shirts all button up the "female" way. However, no one seems to have noticed that I often wear pants without zippers. Last year I started on hormones, an no one at all has commented that I am almost an A cup by now. And no one seems to notice I wear pantyhose for socks. Because I have a bit of a handicap and to avoid leg pain, I have to wear support hose. But I wear no socks over them.

And I have not had a hair cut since 2003. I keep it blonde. I wear my hair to work in a pony tail.

All I got was once, in the fall of 2004 when I was to go to Portugal for a service call, the owner of the company asked that I not go in drag.

But then I design the products that will be the company's main products the next year and have designs that do several million dollars a year in sales volume. As well, it took them a year to find me because there is a shortage of designers who are willing to move to Southern California.

But I do not intend to actually transition on the job per say. I just plan to let people adapt gradually and when th company comes to me to say that maybe I had better use the women's washroom, then I will make it official there. Otherwise I feel it is best to just leave things go unsaid.

See what I look like at www.danielle-oc-ca.50megs.com


Danielle

a question for the people on hrt (ts only) who haven't transitioned;
why did you start taking hormones if you did not plan to transition on the job?  what is the point of "looking female" if you still have the social roles of a man?

i just don't get it.

Quote from: Katia on March 04, 2007, 10:07:45 PM
a question for the people on hrt (ts only) who haven't transitioned;
why did you start taking hormones if you did not plan to transition on the job?  what is the point of "looking female" if you still have the social roles of a man?

I just don't get it.

1. I was at that point in my life if I didn't start transition at some level it would have had serious negative effects on me.
2. I figured at my age the changes wouldn't be all that noticeable.
3. It takes a while for the hormones to have dramatic effect.

Those are some of my reasons.

Well, I think the aggressive responses by some to Julie's struggle ignores the very difficult dynamics in play. Like so many of us, coming out represents a major step into the very unknown. Is it enough to just "be yourself" ? or are there trade offs with which Julie is struggling to come to terms? Is this really just about pushing the envelope or is it moving dramatically toward the day she finally is ready to be herself to the world?

For some, maybe it is merely allowing yourself to emerge in your total female self but what if she loses her employment? What if she faces unbelievable public or family ridicule? As we slowly come to terms in accepting ourselves (after years and a years of self loathing -- few can say they felt otherwise) and begin to actually like ourselves ... this is what is happening, I think. Julie must not be pushed by any of us (no matter how well meaning we are on her behalf) ...

I just think she is doing it OK and as the time becomes right, she will not be struggling as much and it will be fine.

And so what if "she is not fooling anyone" or maybe, just maybe, not many care and still she has time -- even as some may "suspect"

Good luck, Julie. You are a professional and have a wonderful demeanor and attitude ... 

Quote from: Danielle_oc_ca on March 04, 2007, 09:10:02 PM
And I have not had a hair cut since 2003. I keep it blonde. I wear my hair to work in a pony tail.

I would imagine you must have terrible split ends then.  It should have a minimal amount trimmed off every couple of months at least.  That's one of the big differences between male looking hair and female looking hair is that female looking hair tends to be much better cared for.  Of course if you *want* it to be more male looking so you're not found out, then nevermind.

Melissa

I have been on HRT for 2 years now and have developed very nicely. I am a 38C , but really want to be 38D. I have moved to the country where no one knew me. I am full time. I go without bras all the time, and that in its self shuts out most of the suspicion. If a guy sees nipples you are a girl. No questions asked!! They can't see any further than those 2 things sticking out from your chest. I am working very hard on my voice. It seams to be the think I can't seam to conqure all of the time. If I am aware of my surroundings I am ok, but if my attention gets laxed it will give me away sometimes.

Deb

Quote from: debisl on January 09, 2007, 03:54:07 PM
yes i wear a 38D with baggies filled with water. I want something more realistic.

Quote from: debisl on March 05, 2007, 11:19:26 AM
I go without bras all the time, and that in its self shuts out most of the suspicion. If a guy sees nipples you are a girl. No questions asked!! They can't see any further than those 2 things sticking out from your chest.

I am confused.  How can you wear a 38D bra with baggies of water, yet go around braless "all the time"?

Melissa

I am a 38C, but want to be a 38D. I have just added little baggie filled with water to get me there. I was just wondering about the sillicone berats forms. I really want to have larger breast. But until I can get them I would like to use something to get them there.

Deb