Quote from: cynthialee on July 28, 2011, 03:20:40 PM
For the most part I can't say I have seen allot of people drafting others into definitions they don't agree with.

I have seen a number of folks jump up and start asserting that they are not this or that when someone else identifies as whatever it is.

Fine your not an 'insert variable'. Someone else is and it doesn't chalenge or invalidate your identification as 'insert variable'.

To me, when I see someone get so riled up whenever someone uses a label that they themselves do not use and then make it a point how damning and wrong it is or how using the other label somehow usurps our civil rights, then that is to me, being very militant of trying to force their label on another...its just a sly way of doing it.

Almost like

"well you can use whatever label you like but in the end, your label is wrong and my label is right."

To me it's the same and it's very destructive behavior too!

Annah,
We seem to be on the same page.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 28, 2011, 02:57:03 PM
The only labels I put on myself are: music fan, noise maker and dork.

Yes.  This is awesome.

I suppose if I were to label myself, I'd cloose "transgender," "(two-spirited) androgyne," and I crossdress, but am not overly flamboyant or rude to others about any of these things.     I'd like to be seen as just me, and not to only be known as 'that trans guy' or 'that girl who thinks she's a dude.'

I wish people wouldn't get so very angry sometimes.    Regardless of gender identity issues or whatever, we're all humans here, and we won't always agree with each other or get along; that's just how things are. 

Hugs all around?     Please don't kill me, I'm just trying to be nice and offer some happy to what seems to be an angry conversation.   

Quote from: Pica Pica on July 28, 2011, 02:37:31 PM
But it's a transgender umbrella, not a transgender rainmac.



Each of these people are under the umbrella, none of them are compromising who they are, none of them are having a new identity forced onto them for being under the umbrella, but each of them get to stay dry.

It's not really about TG vs TS, at least not in my mind...both describe a medical condition albeit slightly differently. The real issue is activists vs non activists.

We need activists, but the problem is as they get steadily more militant about their cause, the grow increasingly less flexible when it comes to understanding anyone elses point of veiw until they reach a point where they can't understand why anyone wouldn't identify the way they do and generally act like complete muppets as they loadly proclaim "My way is best!". They also just can't get their heads around the fact that TS and TG are at one and the same time both linguistic labels (which apply to everyone) and cultural labels (which only really apply to those that are happy to wear them). There is a world of difference between being a transexual woman and identifying as a transexual woman...same goes for being transgendered as opposed to identifying as transgendered. Taking on being TS or TG (of a tree if you really want to, I don't really care) as an integral part of your cultural identity has the effect of marking you out as different, not everyone wants to single themselves out as different. What effectively happens in these stupid and pointless arguments is the people who have chosen to take the cultural identity of TS/TG upon themselves get narky and aggressive and really condescending with the people who don't want to. The people who don't want to take the cultural identity of TS/TG upon themselves, get scared by the narky, aggressive condescion and get defensive and angry in return because what they just want to live their lives and don't like the pressure (perceived or real it doesn't matter) from the activists to take the cultural labels of tg/ts upon themselves.

We need both sorts of people in this world, neither way is best, neither way is wrong and the world would be a far nicer place if people actually thought for a second before opening their cake holes.

Quote from: Laura91 on July 28, 2011, 02:57:03 PM
The only labels I put on myself are: music fan, noise maker and dork.

My labels (identities): woman, mother, lover, bisexual/lesbian, transsexual, transgendered, photographer, graphic artist, computer programmer, writer/author, singer, musician, human, animal lover, tree hugger, liberal, etc.

Quote from: Annah on July 28, 2011, 12:25:58 PM
To be honest it's a war between those who say "transgender is the only way to identify ourselves because I don't like the word transsexual" vs those who say "transsexual is the only way to identify ourselves because I don't like the word transgender."

Personally I don't like either word, but so far the medical industry has not invented a proper term. No it is not a mental disorder. My mind is fine, it's this body that has the problem.

Sometimes the use of one term is required for a quick explanation when you don't want to give the full details, in which case I don't really care which term.

I'm not going to let an industry define me.  It's a word, not a sentence.

Quote from: Annah on July 28, 2011, 02:00:36 PM
Pica, I find you absolutely adorable!

Stay as you are!

but ditch the vest.

IMO and I may be wrong in yours, transsexual is a sex thing to many people.
I am transgendered, it wasn't about sex, it was about gender.

I'm beginning to wonder if there's a generation thing here too - I'm more used to the word "gender" meaning simply male/female/other (as well as its more recent application to "sense of gender" or "gender role" from a sociological/experiential perspective) rather than the word "sex" being used for that, when it comes to people.

And I think it's specious to claim that the "sexual" in transsexual refers simply to "sex" as in male/female/other, because in our culture, "sexual" is a profoundly sexualised term whose meaning points towards sexual activity, not gender. I've just started reading Transgender Warriors, and I am more uncomfortable than I expected with the term "transsexual", especially as a noun - because it reminds me of "homosexual" used as a noun (and used as a weapon), as if it somehow defines someone, and defines them purely in sexual terms. It feels really loaded to me, in a way that transgender does not.

I find it significant (but in what way, I have no idea!) that transsexual is the medical term of choice in the US, and transgender is the medical term of choice in the UK. I wonder how that happened.

Quote from: Padma on July 29, 2011, 02:38:15 AM
"sexual" is a profoundly sexualised term

Favourite sentence in this thread.

Quote from: Padma on July 29, 2011, 02:38:15 AM
I find it significant (but in what way, I have no idea!) that transsexual is the medical term of choice in the US, and transgender is the medical term of choice in the UK. I wonder how that happened.

We often disagree on out linguistic markers it would seem.

Padma, it's quite simple, the UK wanted to tax the US on the use of "transgender" so we had a revolution and started using "transsexual!"

Quote from: Tracey on July 29, 2011, 05:53:36 AM
Padma, it's quite simple, the UK wanted to tax the US on the use of "transgender" so we had a revolution and started using "transsexual!"

Nah, Harry Benjamin coined the term "transsexual" in the US before the term "transgender" was coined, so from our point of view over here, "transsexual" is just another dodgy US export . Just to be clear, I have no problem with anyone else wanting to call themselves transsexual - I'm just saying that I don't wish to call myself or be called that.

I note as well that I come across both SRS and GRS on this forum as acronyms for reassignment surgery. Curiously enough, "gender reassignment surgery" gets almost twice as many google hits as "sexual reassignment surgery", even though "transsexual" is more predominant there than "transgender". I don't know what to make of this, but I find it interesting.

Quote from: Padma on July 29, 2011, 02:38:15 AM
And I think it's specious to claim that the "sexual" in transsexual refers simply to "sex" as in male/female/other, because in our culture, "sexual" is a profoundly sexualised term whose meaning points towards sexual activity, not gender. I've just started reading Transgender Warriors, and I am more uncomfortable than I expected with the term "transsexual", especially as a noun - because it reminds me of "homosexual" used as a noun (and used as a weapon), as if it somehow defines someone, and defines them purely in sexual terms. It feels really loaded to me, in a way that transgender does not.

I think you're absolutely right.  Passing through the gay community before arriving here, its the non-gay, non-transgendered people that insist on stressing the -sexual part of the identity.  What's worse is our -sexuality is a bigger deal to them then it is to us, masking and yet expressing their discomfort with our identities and using it as a weapon to marginalize us.  Add in a gay pride parade sound bite, out of context, and we're all a bunch of sex freaks.

We're not doing ourselves any good by dressing up like a slutty Cat Girl for the next parade, but at the same time the "we're just like you campaign" (no we're not) seems to have backfired as well.  Either you're not comfortable with me catting around in fishnets (becuase if that's what I do at a pride parade, that's my every day life of course) or I don't need these "special rights" you've been told I'm looking for because I'm just like you.  Somewhere in between is where we need to position ourselves and yet we haven't been able to do that as a GLB T community for 50 years.

I am TransMutual

and I am declaring war on all other trans-anythings.  That includes TransFats and TransDucers.

When my army is finished, you'll never know what hit you because they'll have wandered off into the woods smelling flowers and comparing wardrobes.

Which do you prefer, A or B?

A


B

A.

Quote from: Adele on July 29, 2011, 11:27:06 AM
While I agree with this, it's useful to remember what's normally meant by "disorder". A condition is labeled a disorder when it causes significant distress and impairment in day-to-day functioning. The depression and anxiety caused by GID definitely fits that standard, in my humble opinion (they did for me, anyway). So, GID is the disorder; transition is the cure. That's just my take on it.

I 100% agree with this!

I suffered through GID and the symptoms were depression. If anyone suffered from Gender Identity Dysphoria, they have a mental disorder. However, this is just my opinion.

My much vaunted troops just got their heads caught in tubs of Marshmello Fluffernutter.   

Quote from: Padma on July 28, 2011, 01:19:58 PM
*cough* feminists *cough*

Cisgender lesbian militant separatist feminists.