Kia Ora

As we all know no two transition journeys/stories are the same, even though we might all have suffered from the same condition, our life's circumstances differ greatly... 

I'm lead to believe there are different levels of this dysphoric state that many of us who identify[or have previously identified] as being transsexual go through ...Some people are able to repress their inner desires long enough to get a good education find a secure job/profession save money and complete their transition, some have even gone so far as to started a family...One could say the level of their dysphoria was "low" to "moderate" ...Even though it was always on their minds they had developed coping mechanisms...

Whilst there are others who can/could not repress their feelings and by not doing so face/d tremendous amounts of ridicule, bullying, rejection from family school/work collegues etc...And because of their level of dysphoria, some face major difficulty trying to obtain a good education and secure skilled work...Their level of dysphoria could be seen as "extremely high"...

I for example spent many years doped up on tranquilisers [on and off for over twenty years]...I was prescribed them after my first psyche hospital stay back in the early 1970s...
I wouldn't say my dysphoric state was extremely high, it would have been 'moderate" in other words I wasn't like a screaming limp wrist queen[nothing against SLWQs  ] , however mother's little helpers [Valium]  helped reduce the anxiety I felt, so I could for the most part lead a relatively "normal" life[marry have children white picket fence etc etc]...But alas nothing is permanent, even on the wonder drug of the day the dysphoric state doesn't disappear completely...It's like a pressure cooker, eventually my gender identity [being the steam] had to find a way to come "out"...

It's quite possible for some members whose level of dysphoria is low to medium, to function ok in society as their birth sex[without being hospitalised, tranquilised and thoughts of or attempts to suicide] long enough to get their "act" together[their house in order so to speak]...But some members no doubt just find it impossible to function as their birth sex and have to face society's gauntlet of ridicule and rejection, until they can figure out a way to come up with the money needed to complete their transition...

Now all this is my personal take on the whole issues surrounding the transsexual[or transgender] condition-others might not see it the same way and they have every right to do so ...

But it is some food for thought though...

I guess this post is to complement the "In a perfect world " thread

"Different strokes for different folks !" Folks

Metta Zenda

PS I forgot to add socioeconomic factors also have an impact on ones ability to complete ones transition along with the level of acceptance from family members ...

I think the "trans spectrum" describes multiple different conditions, I don't think they're all the same issue. I do not think it's accurate to lump everyone together under the same umbrella because it ignores the specifics of their condition.

How many mtf lesbians are there? How many ftm gay guys are there? The numbers are definitely off compared to the cis population. If you look in the ftm forum, plenty of people talk about their makeup and fashion, if you look in the mtf forum, plenty of people talk about their guns and cars.

I don't even think it's entirely about dysphoria, I think being trans just naturally causes a failure to normalize into the birth sex's gender role. If you plop a woman's brain in a man's body and raise them as a man, most of the time it will cause problems and they will certainly be evident, regardless of the person's reaction to them. Dysphoria is kind of a complex question because there could be extra dysphoria from any number of other things in life, too.

I agree, different strokes for different folks, and I think it caters better to everyone's needs when we recognize that not everyone is/must be the same.

Kia Ora Pretty,

Thanks for your response...What I was trying to do was make the point just because some members have managed to repress their "disorder" [which for the most part does tend to end up causing them some distress 'dysphoria' in the long run] doesn't mean others with a similar condition "can" do the same...

Sadly some members are under the impression because they have managed to cope quite well living and working in their birth  sex, that is have got a good education found a good job earned-or have the ability to earn enough money to transition, they seem to think "all" other "transsexual"-people can do the same="one size fits all"...Which for obvious reason is a fallacy...[one size doesn't fit all- hence why  different strokes for different folks]

I have come across young trans-people who no matter how they try just can't repress their inner most desires, and because of this they have to put up with the taunting and ridicule  when  "presenting" their true-selves in public=running the gauntlet so to speak on a daily bases...A close friend of mine who started to live full time when she turned 17 had left school early because of the bullying, she's now 36 and can barely read and write, but she she's extremely "street wise"...

How successful one's transition is, could boil down to where one lives and how accepting others are of one's condition and to what extent one can [if necessary] repress their true self....

I'm fully aware that some gay[as in lesbian M2Fs and gay F2Ms or bi M2fs & F2Ms] might not be under the same amount of societal pressure to conform, because for some[when living as their birth sex] their behaviour is not generally seen as too far outside the norm=example slightly effeminate "lesbian" pre transition M2F dating another female or tomboyish gay F2M  dating another male ...

My apologies if the point I was trying to make was not clear...

BTW I posted this in the "transsexual" section of the forum...Because it involves those who would describe themselves/identify as "transsexual" and not just transgender [as in the umbrella term]...

Thanks again for your response...Which for the most part we do tend to be on the same page...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on August 06, 2011, 01:08:56 AM

I for example spent many years doped up on tranquilisers [on and off for over twenty years]...I was prescribed them after my first psyche hospital stay back in the early 1970s...
I wouldn't say my dysphoric state was extremely high, it would have been 'moderate" in other words I wasn't like a screaming limp wrist queen[nothing against SLWQs  ] , however mother's little helpers [Valium]  helped reduce the anxiety I felt, so I could for the most part lead a relatively "normal" life[marry have children white picket fence etc etc]...But alas nothing is permanent, even on the wonder drug of the day the dysphoric state doesn't disappear completely...It's like a pressure cooker, eventually my gender identity [being the steam] had to find a way to come "out"...

"Different strokes for different folks !" Folks

Metta Zenda

  Hum ... this explains a lot  . I guess I will  paraphrase you as "Differnet drugs for different Folks!" 

Metta Kate

Quote from: Zenda on August 06, 2011, 03:18:28 PM

Sadly some members are under the impression because they have managed to cope quite well living and working in their birth  sex, that is have got a good education found a good job earned-or have the ability to earn enough money to transition, they seem to think "all" other "transsexual"-people can do the same="one size fits all"...Which for obvious reason is a fallacy...[one size doesn't fit all- hence why  different strokes for different folks]
My apologies if the point I was trying to make was not clear...

So, what do you proposes we do about, other than whine?

Kate D

I have long believed that this condition we are born with comes in varying degrees, just like any other birth condition.  For some it manifests early in life, some later on in life.  Also, the effects vary from mild to profound in different individuals.  I think Harry Benjamin's scale of transsexual types was an early attempt to quantify or categorize the varying degrees that people are affected with this condition, though it's generally agreed now that there are some flaws in this.

I very much agree with Zenda that there seems to be a tendency among some of those less affected to assume that it is thus so for everyone- that if they can go without surgeries or hormones or whatever, then everyone else should be able to as well.  I've heard this stated in several places, both explicitly and implicitly, and generally it is to denigrate the undergoing of surgical procedures, or to suggest that it is somehow not "really" necessary, or a selfish "choice", or at best completely inconsiderate of family and friends.  If you try to say that isn't so in your own personal case and you actually needed these things to be cured, then you risk being labeled "elitist" and accused of claiming your condition is "more trans" than someone else's condition.  It's a veritable minefield, but for the life of me I still cannot personally fathom why ANYONE would actually claim to be transsexual if it weren't for the purpose of being cured or at least finding some way to deal with it on a permanent basis.  To me it's like bragging that my cancer is worse than your cancer. 

Then you have those others who claim to be the "real transsexuals".  I'm here to tell you right now that I am NOT a "real" transsexual; in fact, I'm no longer any sort of transsexual at all.   So accuse me of being "less ->-bleeped-<- than thou" if you like, but my condition has been cured and no longer affects me- that is, I am a woman with no further need or desire whatsoever to change my sex!  So even though there may be varying degrees, it is possible to be cured.

Kia Ora Kate,

Judging by many of your comments/responses to not only my posts but many others too, you come across as having been very fortunate when it comes to not having suffered from deep depression and anxiety which many have face due to their dysphoric state...If this is the case then I'm truly happy for you...

It would also seem you have "planned" your transition down to the "T" so to speak, from a very young age systematically getting everything in order, by getting a decent education, finding  "secure"  and skilled work position for when you can "safely" transition with the least negative impact[so it would seem] upon your family and work...One could say you are a text book example Kate of a well organised [no hang ups] late transitioner...I can only commend how you have managed your transition so far...   

There are others who are less fortunate than both of us, sadly some have passed on[committed suicide] not being able to conform to societal norms and not having the mental strength to fulfil their life's ambitions...

You're a very lucky/fortunate girl Kate having the mental strength to "repress" your gender identity for so long and managing to reach this level of security in your life that many members here would love to emulate...I know you don't care about how difficult life is for some-your philosophy is simple you tell them to "Get over it and get on with their lives !" For some strange reason you seem to think because you can do it everyone else should be able to do the same.. "Oh if life was so "simple"...

Not every member here shares your amazing will power and patience Kate...For some their journey of self discovery have taken them through hell, some fortunate enough to pass on through[I'm one of the fortunate ones] some not so fortunate...

However I'm in the fortunate position to have lived through the worst of my gender dysphoria and come out the other side mentally unscathed, in fact I've greatly benefited from the experience...And I can without any feelings of regret, sadness or self pity talk about my past because it's just that, a passing experience "nothing is permanent" ...My life now Kate is sweet I'm actually living it to the full and not just "pretending"...

Remember "Different strokes for different folks !" Trans-history shows we are not all "perfect" Kate!

BTW When's the big day ? When[if you haven't already done so- I'm not quite sure where you are at on your journey ] will you shake the shackles of male bondage once and for all Kate?

When you do, I hope the years of repression[self denial] have been worth it...

Happy Mindfulness Kate

Metta Zenda      

Alice has never been good at mathematics, and this time she again got a bad mark in a mathematics exam, and she is upset and gets depressed about it. Bob asks her what's wrong.

Alice sighs. "I got a crap mark in my exam again. My parents will be furious."

Bob replies, "Well, serves you right to get a crap mark, you should have studied harder. Stop whining about it."

Quote from: apple pie on August 07, 2011, 03:03:22 PM
Alice has never been good at mathematics, and this time she again got a bad mark in a mathematics exam, and she is upset and gets depressed about it. Bob asks her what's wrong.

Alice sighs. "I got a crap mark in my exam again. My parents will be furious."

Bob replies, "Well, serves you right to get a crap mark, you should have studied harder. Stop whining about it."

Kia Ora Apple,

I'm not quite sure what your comments were meant to represent but...........

If you read through my post you will find I'm not whinging nor complaining about how I've been treated in the past, on the whole I've come through this unscathed...However others are less fortunate and are facing great difficulty coming to terms with their condition...I think you will find having  "empathy"  for others and not "blaming/judging" the less fortunate [making them feel guilty], is what most members here [most but not all] strive to promote...

Your life's circumstances might very well be like Kate's and you might also have the mental strength to overcome much of what life throws at you...If this is the case I'm truly happy for you and can only wish you all the best...And if you happen to trip on one of many bumps in the road I hope you can pick yourself up and continue on...Good luck on your journey of self discovery Apple...

Metta Zenda

Hi Zenda!

It is meant as a parallel situation for people to compare, which can go both ways It's easier to see a situation when you're not one of the parties involved. I deliberately left out what I thought of it.

But to me (and I was hoping, to most people), Bob is being really mean, without considering that Alice simply isn't good at mathematics (and thus even if she did try, she still probably would get a crap mark). And I was hoping that people in this thread might just happen to be not so good at mathematics and might understand Alice in this situation

Does that make sense sorry for being so cryptic heehee

By the way, yes I do consider myself as having fortunate circumstances. I haven't had any practical life problems due to the dysphoria, except for being depressed at certain times. But personally, I think the idea that "if I can do it, so can you" is bull. I can do lots and lots of things that I'm sure no one around me will ever do. If anyone says to me because they could do something therefore I can do it too, I give them 15 seconds to tell me what 1225 squared (1225 times 1225) is.

Quote from: apple pie on August 07, 2011, 04:03:05 PM
Hi Zenda!

It is meant as a parallel situation for people to compare, which can go both ways It's easier to see a situation when you're not one of the parties involved. I deliberately left out what I thought of it.

But to me (and I was hoping, to most people), Bob is being really mean, without considering that Alice simply isn't good at mathematics (and thus even if she did try, she still probably would get a crap mark). And I was hoping that people in this thread might just happen to be not so good at mathematics and might understand Alice in this situation

Does that make sense sorry for being so cryptic heehee

By the way, yes I do consider myself as having fortunate circumstances. I haven't had any practical life problems due to the dysphoria, except for being depressed at certain times. But personally, I think the idea that "if I can do it, so can you" is bull. I can do lots and lots of things that I'm sure no one around me will ever do. If anyone says to me because they could do something therefore I can do it too, I give them 15 seconds to tell me what 1225 squared (1225 times 1225) is.

Kia Ora Apple,

Thanks for clearing this up...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: FairyGirl on August 06, 2011, 08:28:52 PM
I have long believed that this condition we are born with comes in varying degrees, just like any other birth condition.  For some it manifests early in life, some later on in life.  Also, the effects vary from mild to profound in different individuals.  I think Harry Benjamin's scale of transsexual types was an early attempt to quantify or categorize the varying degrees that people are affected with this condition, though it's generally agreed now that there are some flaws in this.

I very much agree with Zenda that there seems to be a tendency among some of those less affected to assume that it is thus so for everyone- that if they can go without surgeries or hormones or whatever, then everyone else should be able to as well.  I've heard this stated in several places, both explicitly and implicitly, and generally it is to denigrate the undergoing of surgical procedures, or to suggest that it is somehow not "really" necessary, or a selfish "choice", or at best completely inconsiderate of family and friends.  If you try to say that isn't so in your own personal case and you actually needed these things to be cured, then you risk being labeled "elitist" and accused of claiming your condition is "more trans" than someone else's condition.  It's a veritable minefield, but for the life of me I still cannot personally fathom why ANYONE would actually claim to be transsexual if it weren't for the purpose of being cured or at least finding some way to deal with it on a permanent basis.  To me it's like bragging that my cancer is worse than your cancer. 

Then you have those others who claim to be the "real transsexuals".  I'm here to tell you right now that I am NOT a "real" transsexual; in fact, I'm no longer any sort of transsexual at all.   So accuse me of being "less ->-bleeped-<- than thou" if you like, but my condition has been cured and no longer affects me- that is, I am a woman with no further need or desire whatsoever to change my sex!  So even though there may be varying degrees, it is possible to be cured.

Kia Ora Fairy,

Sadly some here[these are in the minority] have yet to reach this level of deep understanding that many of us share...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on August 07, 2011, 04:48:27 PM
Kia Ora Fairy,

Sadly some here[these are in the minority] have yet to reach this level of deep understanding that many of us share...

Metta Zenda

Oh for cry out loud girl you sound like those self rightoust evangelical preachers.  "We love you but we hate what you are."

What is the "deep understaning" ?

Kate D

lol I don't know that it's so deep, it's just a viewpoint from a different perspective.  I think Zenda's comment was made with tongue in cheek. 

I know how hard it is for some people; I know some people do not make it through, and I feel very fortunate that I did without killing myself one way or another.  My escape was sex and drugs- lots of both, all starting at a very early age, but none of it ever really helped.  I can look back now and shake my head at my own foolishness and marvel that I survived unscathed, but it is a very scary situation to find oneself in, and I try to be always mindful how much some people really suffer with this condition.

Quote from: kate durcal on August 07, 2011, 04:59:49 PM
Oh for cry out loud girl you sound like those self rightoust evangelical preachers.  "We love you but we hate what you are."

What is the "deep understaning" ?

Kate D

Kia Ora,

Empathy and compassion Kate...Sadly it would seem this is somewhat lacking in some people's life...But we live in hope...

In fact Kate I'm gonna say a little prayer for you right now Kate...   laugh

I asked this earlier on....

BTW When's the big day ? When[if you haven't already done so- I'm not quite sure where you are at on your journey ] will you shake the shackles of male bondage once and for all Kate?

Now you don't have to answer this personal question Kate...Understandably these type of questions might make you feel a little uncomfortable ...

Metta Zenda  

Kia Ora,

I dunno...as much as you are really valid...I don't think this is varied strokes of the dysphoria...But rather another aspect...?  With my surrounding environment, and my ability to cope, I probably would have a low dypsphoria... ---but despite it all I feel it is something that is very strong in my nature, and would instead call it very high despite the criteria being perfect for low dysphoria...
All-in-all, I agree on the terms of the concept, I just feel that some of the complexities make it a little 'off' to go and call it varied amounts of how much the dysphoria is confronting the person experiencing it.

... >.>; sorry, had to try the 'kia ora' just once D:

Quote from: Sabriel Facrin on August 07, 2011, 05:32:21 PM
Kia Ora,

I dunno...as much as you are really valid...I don't think this is varied strokes of the dysphoria...But rather another aspect...?  With my surrounding environment, and my ability to cope, I probably would have a low dypsphoria... ---but despite it all I feel it is something that is very strong in my nature, and would instead call it very high despite the criteria being perfect for low dysphoria...
All-in-all, I agree on the terms of the concept, I just feel that some of the complexities make it a little 'off' to go and call it varied amounts of how much the dysphoria is confronting the person experiencing it.

... >.>; sorry, had to try the 'kia ora' just once D:

Kia Ora S F,

And how did it feel 

A lot boils down to how mentally prepared one is and this depends a lot on the person's personal circumstances...Some have been fortunate enough to developed better coping skills than others...

But we should not pass judgement on those who are having a harder time than ourselves coping...

Metta Zenda

I think the amount of dysphoria one has is a separate factor from their resilience to stand against it, not forgetting the amount of motivation one may or may not have in their life to stand against it in the first place.  All three of which probably are affected by countless variables, playing off each other in a dizzying number of ways.  I think it is hard to really say that the amount of dysphoria somebody has, whatever that means, determines how soon one transitions, if at all, or how far they will go with their transition.  I think there is a lot more at play.

You did at least touch on each of these though.  When you say that your dysphoria was like a pressure cooker, I think that is a way of describing your resilience.  I think dysphoria has an erosive quality, where the longer you stand against it, the less strength you have to continue doing so.  Also the way you resist it can impact how it ultimately breaks you down.  If you steadfastly hold every bit of it back, while you may last longer before you give way to it, there is a pretty good chance that you will have to deal with a dam-breaking type of cataclysm later in life, especially if there is a lot of dysphoria that you're holding back.  Letting some of your real self through will affect how things fall out in various ways, depending on a number of things I guess.

You also mentioned socio-economic factors, which, probably more than anything else, shape how motivated we feel to stand against our dysphoria.  Along with the variable social pressures we deal with, some people have to give up much more when they transition than others, and some people value what they have to give up more than others.

Quote from: pretty on August 06, 2011, 02:05:31 AM
I think the "trans spectrum" describes multiple different conditions, I don't think they're all the same issue. I do not think it's accurate to lump everyone together under the same umbrella because it ignores the specifics of their condition.
..snip

I pretty much agree with this, except I would add that whether or not we all belong under the same umbrella depends on the size of the umbrella you're talking about.  After all, you could make an umbrella big enough to include all of humanity if you wanted.  The way I see the spectrum of gender is the same way I see an acutal spectrum of light, which is that there is no hard edged deliniation between the colors, but you'd have to be crazy or blind to say they're all the same.

Quote from: Zenda on August 07, 2011, 05:15:25 PM

BTW When's the big day ? When[if you haven't already done so- I'm not quite sure where you are at on your journey ] will you shake the shackles of male bondage once and for all Kate?

Now you don't have to answer this personal question Kate...Understandably these type of questions might make you feel a little uncomfortable ...

Zenda

Ah! I have figure you out  . Zenda -the passive aggressive- with the seemingly harmless questions, full of meaningless emoticons, but always seeking information on others while saying nothing about herself. Very cunning  ; but as I was saying I figure you out girl  , YOU ARE A VOUYERIST  , aren't you girl 

You are dying to know where I am in my journey! Why? Uh, sorry  I forgot! You are a voyeur 

Kate D

Quote from: kate durcal on August 07, 2011, 07:33:56 PM
Ah! I have figure you out  . Zenda -the passive aggressive- with the seemingly harmless questions, full of meaningless emoticons, but always seeking information on others while saying nothing about herself. Very cunning  ; but as I was saying I figure you out girl  , YOU ARE A VOUYERIST  , aren't you girl 

You are dying to know where I am in my journey! Why? Uh, sorry  I forgot! You are a voyeur 

Kate D

Kia Ora,

Actually Kate I'm trying to work out where all these outlandish statements of yours are coming from, that is what experience have you had on your "trans" journey to come out with such stuff...Nothing more nothing less Kate... But I guess my simple line of questioning was a little too uncomfortable for your liking... Oh well...It figures...  Closet life-there's nothing to be ashamed of Kate we've all been there....

Metta Zenda