removed

kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 08, 2011, 02:39:24 PM
kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.

Word.

Quote from: RyanThomas on August 08, 2011, 02:39:24 PM
kittycatzoe: this isn't an issue of us not respecting your right to have an opinion (as infuriating as that opinion may be). it's an issue of how your blatant sexism and disrespect for men is affecting this online community. recently, you've been making several insensitive threads and posts in the FTM forum and i really don't appreciate it. i can't speak for others, but i assume they feel the same. again, while you have a right to your own ideas on men, you don't have a right to make others feel unsafe and uncomfortable with that opinion on a SUPPORT FORUM. likewise, i have a right to feel a certain way about women, but if i had a horrible opinion on them, what good is going to the MTF forum and making insensitive posts? it makes me look like an ass with nothing better to do than insult people online because of my own insecurities.

I understand. Sorry i will happily remove my post and please pm any threads name and i will immediately delete

Quote from: Korlee on August 08, 2011, 02:07:56 PM
Thing is the BS goes both ways in large amounts there are no words to describe it.  Heck, I've seen you guys get a thread going before about not understanding women and most of what was in it?  Was just stereotypical BS...  This is a bloody norm for the most part.  Not saying it is right or wrong...

That just is the way it is and she may have her own issues as well with men.  I mean if I judged men by the ones met in my early days, the locker room chat, bathroom chat, and general conversation?  I'd think just like her in every way.  There is a peaceful way to approach this as noted and that action should be taken first before going to the beep off route.  You might even help her see that not all men are the BS she has encountered in her life.

I agree. In my experience this is completely normal and it definitely goes both ways.

Quote from: Sharky on August 08, 2011, 03:13:26 PM
I agree. In my experience this is completely normal and it definitely goes both ways.

She doesn't understand that though. I guess she has to experience it herself.

Men have always felt threatened by me, lol. It's kind of funny because I'm small and weak. For me, I've been taught things by men that have made me think very differently.

I have never conformed to stereotypes. I've always been real. I think conforming to stereotypes is a school thing. People want to fit in. They care about what other people think of them. That stuff has always been stupid to me.

Quote from: CB on August 08, 2011, 03:34:14 PM
I think a lot of women feel very threatened by men. Personally, I've had terrible male role models in my life, men who have taught me untrue things. I learned from them that a man does whatever he wants, no matter who it hurts. A man doesn't need to consider his wife or children's feelings, because he is the head. "boys will be boys" - men are just more sexual and that's the way it is. Men are just more aggressive and that is the way it is. I was held to a high standard of moral conduct in my family, the other 4 boys, not so much. Men deserve respect, no matter how they behave, because that is our wont.

I know a man does not have to be like this, now. But a lot of girls grow up learning that men are an alien species, and a very hostile one at that. I'm not justifying hateful things, nor do I agree with these viewpoints I'm just offering an explanation.

It makes me angry now. I feel like this hurts women and children, but it also hurts the men who believe they need to be these rigid, horrible creatures to be "real" men. I fight it all the time - as I will be transitioning, sometimes I feel the need to be more masculine and to adhere to these traditional stereotypes. It tears me up, because I am a gentle person, and an intellectual person. A complex person with feelings and desires, much like anyone else. I don't want to hide it from the ones I love, nor do I want to hurt them like the men in my family hurt me.

not to mention women learn to be awared of guys in another way than guys do,

Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 03:49:30 PM
Men have always felt threatened by me, lol. It's kind of funny because I'm small and weak. For me, I've been taught things by men that have made me think very differently.

I have never conformed to stereotypes. I've always been real. I think conforming to stereotypes is a school thing. People want to fit in. They care about what other people think of them. That stuff has always been stupid to me.

Have you ever heard that song by Bowling for Soup -High School Never Ends-?  That song is a little more like reality right there in truth sadly.  The idea of reaching adulthood and entering into a more mature world is just a fantasy.

I have issues with men. I will be honest when I am dealing with a man he already has one strike against him for being a man. It might not be fair or right but it has served me well in the past to always be wary around guys.

Now I do have some male friends and indeed there are 2 men who are closer to me than anyone who hasn't slept with me can get as a general rule. But they did not get that trust fast.

Quote from: Korlee on August 08, 2011, 06:20:59 PM
Have you ever heard that song by Bowling for Soup -High School Never Ends-?  That song is a little more like reality right there in truth sadly.  The idea of reaching adulthood and entering into a more mature world is just a fantasy.

I guess I'm different from everybody else.

Quote from: cynthialee on August 08, 2011, 06:28:12 PM
I have issues with men. I will be honest when I am dealing with a man he already has one strike against him for being a man. It might not be fair or right but it has served me well in the past to always be wary around guys.

Now I do have some male friends and indeed there are 2 men who are closer to me than anyone who hasn't slept with me can get as a general rule. But they did not get that trust fast.

You should be wary around everybody.

Quote from: ravij on August 08, 2011, 06:33:53 PM

You should be wary around everybody.

Agreed. You shouldn't be wary with just men. It should be with everyone. Focusing one strike on all men you meet really isn't fair. That's like someone saying "if you're black then that's one strike against you" or "if you're a Jew, that's one strike against you." I was verbally attacked on my Facebook yesterday because a trans girl realized I was Jew by blood. She said some pretty vile things. After writing her a private dissertation on how messed up she made herself out to look in front of all my other friends, I promptly de friended her and blocked her. in her mind, the Jews were the woes of her life. She blamed the Jews for the reason why she was financially struggling....this gives no excuse for her to attack or distrust a Jew. Likewise, the same formula follows with gender prejudice.

Gender focused attacks or distrust to me is in the same field of those who have racial attacks or distrust. 

If people are having an issue with men because of whatever reasons in their life, then I am hoping those people are working hard to dismiss these unhealthy stereotypes. For example, the women in my life growing up were really bad role models but I had to learn that these were specific people that had no relation to the female gender. they were just a holes....not because they were female but because they were just a holes by their actions.

I am sure no one likes it whenever people judge us poorly because we are trans; because that is exactly what we are doing when we judge a man before seeing their actions.

I am ashamed to say that at one point (as an MtF myself), I was something similar to those bashing men.

So I understand personally why some MtFs like to bash men. I think it has something to do with the guys that were around me as I grew up. So maybe it's the same with others who like to bash men. If most men you know are jerks, then it's hard not to think that most men are jerks. (It's like growing up in a radical stronghold somewhere in the Middle East... if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil! And similarly many Americans think Muslims = terrorists...)

I have since met some nice guys and I completely don't have anything against men any more. Especially since after I began living full-time, since it seems men act nicer to women. So if anyone here feels they have issues with men, trust me, actually a lot of them aren't jerks

I would point out that she is 43, never married, single and seemingly staying that way... I also know she was a virgin because she said the only way 'she would give it away' was after a diamond ring.

Proving my point that people who think that men only want sex out of them aren't even good for that.

if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil

If you grew up there you'd have a more sophisticated notion of international politics, and like a lot of other people in the world, they don't hate Americans, they hate the American Government (for good reason), and make a pretty clear distinction between the two.

You should be wary around everybody.

Paranoid much?  Normal girls, who grow up in a positive social environment and are well-adjusted, learn long before they even become women that men are not all that hard to handle, and, as a matter of fact, they have a special power over men that they don't have over most other girls.

Well, in my town, there's not many people you can actually trust. I've learned that the hard way... many times.

Quote from: tekla on August 09, 2011, 12:58:42 AM
if I grew up there I probably would think all Americans were evil

If you grew up there you'd have a more sophisticated notion of international politics, and like a lot of other people in the world, they don't hate Americans, they hate the American Government (for good reason), and make a pretty clear distinction between the two.

I specifically referred to a radical stronghold... if you grew up with the Taliban for example, I'm not sure you can avoid hating all Americans! Do they kill only the Americans representing the US government?

Quote from: apple pie on August 09, 2011, 04:13:08 AM
I specifically referred to a radical stronghold... if you grew up with the Taliban for example, I'm not sure you can avoid hating all Americans! Do they kill only the Americans representing the US government?

correct. Last time I checked, there was quite a few civilian causalities on 9/11

It could be a bit more twisted yet.

I used to be chauvinistic and derogatory to FEMALES... it was rubbed into my face and rightfully so after transitioning.
Now looki here! this chauvi turned out to be woman!!! Hey!

In my case it "helped" me to cope in some twisted way with my condition. It is NOT that unusual as it sounds by the way. Mea culpa!

How this could apply to your friend I'm not sure but we can get jolly twisted in our defenses at times.

Maybe she'd LOVE to get a man and can't, so she decides to bash them. Treating them with contempt because she can't get one?
Not the first time I'd have heard of that...

Tricky, eh
Axelle

i see how this men-bashing mechanism might work.

first of all, it's based on stereotypes. stereotypes not neccessarily are the bad thing: they helped us and our ancestors stay safe. for example, "all black and yellow-striped bugs are dangerous". of course not. there are more bugs pretending to be wasps that can't sting and bite at all. but if you have no certain knowledge, avoiding them all is kind of smart.

speaking about men, there really is a kind, that are brought up to be macho - insensitive, sexist and everything your friend bashes. my bet would be was either brought up by one, or was forced to be one, and/or her female relatives were strongly victimised. when her first experience shows those scary macho men, all later met male figures can be perceived as dangerous. in my country, there is a saying "attack is the best defense". maybe this is what's happening?


if you are a friend, you can do better than be offended - you can let her open up and listen why is this. (encourage getting help would be an option)

because this bashing person is doomed to be unhappy, unless she gets some help.

(i hope you understand all this, english is not my 1st language)

Quote from: Thrall on August 09, 2011, 07:22:36 AM

if you are a friend, you can do better than be offended - you can let her open up and listen why is this. (encourage getting help would be an option)

If his MTF friend is anything like some of the MTF male bashers i have known, you can let them open up and listen as to why this is and that will give the ample ammunition to the point where they will just go on to infinity without stopping because some actually enjoy talking about it. Ive seen girls in chat rooms bash men for hours without a break.

There comes a point when you tell the friend to just stop it lol.