I do get the idea that a lot of cross purpose talk happens when we talk hormones and then mix it all up with chromosomes.

If you have XX chromosomes (female, vagina) and PLEASE*) all you "exeptionalists" give us a break if you will, and high levels of testosterone will make you aggro and in liking of some violence.

If you have XY chromosomes (male, penis) and *) see above, high levels of estrogen it will make you more supportive and nurturing.

I think nature had some ideas here when things turned out this way.

Next we have 'XX-men' (FtM) naturally higher on T or on T HRT, arguing all their exceptions and visa versa 'XY-females' (MtF) high on E.

Please recall, that violence and aggression is mostly if not all the flip side of FEAR.
Flight / Fight response is well known. If you don't or can't run YOU WILL SWITCH TO AGGRESSION AND ATTACK. Or defend your territory. If you don't --- you also dead, soon then later. The more we are saddled with fear, the more violent and aggressive we become.

That does not mean that under more normal conditions XX (female) is by nature more supportive and nurturing, and XY (male) more goal oriented, aggressive, and acquisitive/territorial.

I don't see real value, IMHO, to keep arguing all possible exceptions and make all and sundry into one big relativistic pulp.
Arguing humans have two legs, next we have someone that knows that they also can have three legs? Hey!

Food for thought?
Axelle

Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering!
hmm...much fear i sense in you~~~

I can only post my personal experience as a MTF on HRT. I'm on spiro only and what I experienced from lower T levels is a) lower sex drive (yay) b) much calmer, less anxous and less prone to fly off the handle emotionally. I don't really see any change in the whole "nurturing" side of me nor a change in my extroverted/introvertedness. I'm not on e so not sure what effect that might have on my personality, other than it gave -me- nasty headaches and made me very irritable when I did take it. Not sure if the irritable was from the headache? Likely so.

Hi Stephe,
* I don't really see any change in the whole "nurturing" side of me nor a change in my extroverted/introvertedness. *

Maybe you want to read some of the post about a lot of us wanting to be pregnant and have babies.

I should say that is related to nurturing, not goal oriented acquisition... etc.

But thank you for sharing your opinion to the contrary.

Axelle
PS: milktea: * hmm...much fear i sense in you~~~ * hmm...I sense much lack of insight in you ~~~

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 10:48:18 AM
Maybe you want to read some of the post about a lot of us wanting to be pregnant and have babies.

I should say that is related to nurturing, not goal oriented acquisition... etc.

while it might fall under a nurturing concept, it is NOT something related to HRT.  And you conveniently overlook that MANY of us care not one whit about wanting to be pregnant or even having kids...

Well Ann,
as it turn out *only* after HRT did this wish become VERY clear and DOMINANT with me, and so I may think with others also.

Next,
* And you conveniently overlook that MANY of us care not one whit about wanting to be pregnant or even having kids... *

And YOU conveniently overlook that many of us do, Ann.

I don't see what you are trying to get at, other then riding the "exeptions hobby horse"?

Like we DON'T want to nurture, and DON'T want to be supportive, and we are just like any cis-guys in most aspects and HRT and E has nothing to with it at all?!
Really? Is that it?

Well, thank you for sharing your opinion,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 11:42:02 AM
Well Ann,
as it turn out *only* after HRT did this wish become VERY clear and DOMINANT with me, and so I may think with others also.

the few people I personally know who had such desires had them long before they took their first tablet(s) of estrogen.

QuoteI don't see what you are trying to get at, other then riding the "exeptions hobby horse"?

perhaps the fact that the 'nurturing' component was NOT driven by any mode of HRT.  If someone is 'nurturing' then it was a component of their personality all along...whether they CHOSE to express that component is up to the individual.   

Ann,

* the few people I personally know who had such desires had them long before they took their first tablet(s) of estrogen. *

So? That make it what? A non-hormonal issue? Really? And if so, then what?
Will is change the nurturing aspect of things? No.
Seems like splitting hair now if you'd ask me.

* perhaps the fact that the 'nurturing' component was NOT driven by any mode of HRT.  If someone is 'nurturing' then it was a component of their personality all along...whether they CHOSE to express that component is up to the individual. *

The key word in this this sentence is: "Perhaps" ...
And perhaps that was due to a more dominant estrogen level in these cases - before HRT?

If it has nothing to do with hormones I dare suggest that male and female would be jolly much the same in these aspects I brought up, AND THE ARE JUST NOT. Easy peacy...
Unless you be into the "tabula rasa" theory, and like I'm sure not.

If we'd suggest there be more exceptions then the rule, I should agree do differ and keep it at that. Easy peacy too.

Some things can get interestingly complicated in deed,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 12:10:39 PM
* perhaps the fact that the 'nurturing' component was NOT driven by any mode of HRT.  If someone is 'nurturing' then it was a component of their personality all along...whether they CHOSE to express that component is up to the individual. *

The key word in this this sentence is: "Perhaps" ...
And perhaps that was due to a more dominant estrogen level in these cases - before HRT?

When I use 'perhaps' it was in the manner of saying "here is the direction I was thinking..."  It would seem something got lost in the translation...

QuoteIf it has nothing to do with hormones I dare suggest that male and female would be jolly much the same in these aspects I brought up, AND THE ARE JUST NOT.

I would opine that the inate desires ARE essentially the same and there is VERY MUCH a component of learned behavior, not a hormonal or chromosonal difference.  Whether one CHOOSES to express themselves is up to the individual, and I would have had no qualm with the theory that persons on HRT are more inclined to ALLOW themselves to express such personality traits following the beginning of HRT or transition.  But to claim that the change is DUE to the HRT is something that simply is not borne out by reality, else you would see ALMOST EVERYONE on HRT (to include bio peeps who have to take supplements for whatever reason) having such changes in personality...

Ann,
* I would opine that the inate desires ARE essentially the same and there is VERY MUCH a component of learned behavior, not a hormonal or chromosonal difference *

Bingo, that's 'tabula rasa' and I respectfully happen to disagree completely.

So, that's great we found the source of our different perceptions and that is perfectly acceptable - to me. Don't know about you.

May I suggest you endeavour to read "the blank slate" - The Modern Denial of Human Nature by Steven Pinker?

It does address this very issue.

Greetings,
Axelle

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 05:04:21 AM
Food for thought?

No. I don't see what you are trying to get at. Everything in human experience is almost always a mixture of nature and nurture. You can hardly ever find jut a single cause of anything.

Quote from: Axélle on August 10, 2011, 10:48:18 AM
Hi Stephe,
* I don't really see any change in the whole "nurturing" side of me nor a change in my extroverted/introvertedness. *

Maybe you want to read some of the post about a lot of us wanting to be pregnant and have babies.

I should say that is related to nurturing, not goal oriented acquisition... etc.

But thank you for sharing your opinion to the contrary.

All this proves is "a lot of us" say they want to have babies. This wanting to be preggers is likely based on -this would really make me a woman- thoughts rather than some hormonal influence. Given the argument used against post-ops being real women is sometimes "They can't have babies so they aren't really female" is part of this I'm sure as well.

Again I have read so many t girls posting about how they now "love to knit and sew after starting estrogen", is just them trying to fit a stereotype. Hormones don't make your body want to pick up a knitting needle.

What I posted above IS just my opinion, my first post has nothing to do with opinion. I simply posted what my experience has been. That it doesn't fit with someone else's really isn't a shock. Nor does it mean it's wrong, which you seem to be saying...

Stephe,
no, I'm not saying what you say is WRONG --- just contrary to MY own experience.
That's really all.

This 'having your own baby' theme is a recurring one for me, and often it leaves me very sad and in tears.
So I don't think I keep going there just for the fun of it, it just sort of keeps happening.

I can stay well clear of knitting needles, etc. Knitted my own stuff way back in the 70s and never knew it had anything per-se to do with being TS, though who knows, I might have been wrong.

Axelle