Quote from: wendy on August 14, 2011, 06:33:12 PM
Occasionally some random person calls me female and an even rarer person does not correct themselves.  I do not see me as male.  However I do not know what it is to be female since I am viewed as male.

I do not plan on killing myself but Jack Daniels is my boyfriend and I am not able to interact with society.

With great effort I can pass but I will never be very pretty.  Maybe someone will find me attractive?  Certainly my soul mate finds me unattractive as she like males and I am a "whatever".

She is ashamed of me and if I do not remove a "female" marker" I can stay home.  She said remove pink finger nail polish or stay home from volunteer assignment.  And today she said take off scarf and wear a tie or stay home from Church.

I am angry.  A day of volunteering is worth less than pink nails.  Going to church is worth less than wearing a scarf.

A free day of volunteer work is unacceptable if you have pink nails or a day at church is worth less than a scarf?

What am I missing?

Why am I so hideous? 

Society is wrong and I told my wife I should divorce you!  She told me that is fine.

Wendy, that sounds awful to have to go through that. I hope I don't step my boundaries when I say that if the person you're married to is unable to accept who you are, then perhaps it's not meant to be. It would be understandable if it's an issue that just takes time, and patience to resolve. However, there is no resolve for being transgendered. I'd have a conversation with her about this if I were you, and again I'm sorry that's how your relationship is. It sounds to me like she either doesn't know, or is in denial.

Wendy,

I guess the only advice I have, and after all, none of us is Dear Abby: Get a divorce - from Jack Daniels!

I believe something else; you will never be pretty until you can look in a mirror and not see hidious. I strongly suspect hidious comes from Jack, as well as other aspects of your life. Pretty must first of all, be self-evident. If you can't see what "pretty" you have, no one else will see it, or look for it. The first rule of passing: Pass to yourself.

Susan Kay

Quote from: Susan Kay on August 15, 2011, 02:49:12 PM
Wendy,

I guess the only advice I have, and after all, none of us is Dear Abby: Get a divorce - from Jack Daniels!

I believe something else; you will never be pretty until you can look in a mirror and not see hidious. I strongly suspect hidious comes from Jack, as well as other aspects of your life. Pretty must first of all, be self-evident. If you can't see what "pretty" you have, no one else will see it, or look for it. The first rule of passing: Pass to yourself.

Susan Kay

Susan it is actually difficult to divorce Jack.

You are also correct in that I am ugly on inside and out.  Trans people also suffer anxiety and depression like rest of world.  My mind has shut down.  My self worth has evaporated.  My wife has become man of house and I am an embarrassment.   I do feel ugly on inside.

Wife did take me shopping yesterday and we got some very pretty female things.  She told me she shops with daughters and does not see them wear it.  She said you can wear these things just never with me and never around my friends at home or work.  Wear these clothes to support groups.

If I could get a good paying job my wife would stay with me but she is not a lesbian.  She will always be my friend whether we divorce or not.  She will never want me to be amorous with her again because she likes men not women.

I now have two issues as Susan stated.  I must figure out how to get on with my life or make myself pretty on inside.  And I must figure out how to address "stuff" because a "whatever" is not doing it for me.

People that are pretty inside radiate beauty.  I saw one MTF have this beautiful smile and I thought she was pretty.  I really enjoyed her company.  Yet on close examination she was rather male looking and other than her hair was not pretty but I found her personality attractive.

........................
Now thread has two beauties both inner beauty and outer beauty.  Actually inner beauty may be more important than outer beauty. 

Wendy,

Hopefully I can be frank with you. Yes, absolutely, it is sometimes extremely hard to divorce Jack or any of his relatives. Mine was Old Weller's 107. I still occasionally miss him after over 25 years, but not enough to seek him out. He eats up little girls.

Whoa! I did not say you were ugly, inside or out. I was referring to your view of you. I do not sense that you are, and it's unfair to think I do.

My wife and I are in very much the same status as you and yours. She has remained with me through transition and SRS, but she in no way is a lesbian. Not only is she not amorous -she does not even want to see my femaleness; seperate bedrooms, etc. But we are still friends. There is still no guarantee we will remain together. The real test was full transition. I most wanted her happiness except I had to transition and wanted that more. That hurt us both exremely much.

Quote Wendy: "I must figure out how to get on with my life or make myself pretty on inside."
No, you must figure out how to get on with your life AND become pretty on the inside. You can't make yourself feel pretty.

Susan Kay

Hi girls,
as I stated somewhere else, AFTER my divorce (and ONLY then!) I could become one of my ex-wife's best friends, now girl-friends.

We can laugh, she shows caring when I'm sick, we phone, she'd put curlers in my hair, spending hours to take knots out of them (after my brain op), invites me to her new home, and makes every effort to accept me for who I am. None is solicited, she's a strong girl and ONLY does what she feels like, always did, um.

Living together, in separate "rooms" would just not have made THAT possible. It needed that SPACE, lots of it, for her to become OK with me and for who I am.

Clinging onto her in a wrong situation (which I could stop) only would have denigrated me more and make her feel repulsed more and more. Want to become more and more pathetic, for her and yourself?... then go carry on.

->-bleeped-<- Jack and his cousins, get a life and show some of the female strength and spirit that we also are born with! Not just that pink girlie mind-set alone.

Axelle

i found that the older i get, my definition of what makes some beautiful changes. we're definately our own worst critics. i used to compare myself to so many others, and say "i just look so abnormal." that went beyond my gender issues. with my crooked ears, and babyish looking face, i was not common by any means. now, i learned to say. "you know what? rare and unique is beautiful." i used to feel bad that i was not the cookie cutter, but now i know i definately don't want to be that. i've learned to like how tall i am, i've learned to like that i'm not skinny, and i've learned to like that i have asperger's. it came to the point where now i know i don't want to be anything other than what i already am. people really are attracted to uniqueness whether they admit it or not.

Quote from: FullMoon19 on August 16, 2011, 01:17:22 AM
i found that the older i get, my definition of what makes some beautiful changes. we're definately our own worst critics. i used to compare myself to so many others, and say "i just look so abnormal." that went beyond my gender issues. with my crooked ears, and babyish looking face, i was not common by any means. now, i learned to say. "you know what? rare and unique is beautiful." i used to feel bad that i was not the cookie cutter, but now i know i definately don't want to be that. i've learned to like how tall i am, i've learned to like that i'm not skinny, and i've learned to like that i have asperger's. it came to the point where now i know i don't want to be anything other than what i already am. people really are attracted to uniqueness whether they admit it or not.

I use my posts to disprove my transgender behavior.  I suffer from highly functional aspergerlike behavior.  I have a strong correlation to aspbergers yet I can cry and make you laugh.  I use my odd behavior to make everyone laugh and I can solve complex business problems that entire teams can not solve.  I make friends very easily and I keep none for a lifetime.

I visited my therapist today.  She asked me if I were TS.  I told her no.  She asked what I was.  I said I might be TG.  She peppered me with questions and finally I told her TG is how you feel and TS is living as a woman.  She said you are playing semantics.   Is it fair you are a TG MTF.  I said yes.

My wife has put up with explosions of anger.  Move a pencil and you can stop me.  She has helped me earn a good living because I can look at things in a different fashion and solve them.  At 18 I taught Calculus to my senior class in high school because teacher was not trained.   At 150 years old I taught freshman high school students integrated math but was "asked to resign" because I have big breasts and dress with some female articles of clothing.  Oops... That is not what they said.  My goodness everyone else thought I was a good teacher.  I wanted to teach and then do one phase each summer towards my transition goal.  Phase 1 would be privates since no one sees them.  Next year I would do face.

I would prefer to be a female with a male face than a male with a female face!  Why?   In short run it helps me cope with life!  If that does not work then I will move forward.  I do not think I can do all surgeries I want at one time.

I now have this boyish look for an old person.  Soft skin and male features with no beard.

If I go get a job as a male then I may be stuck as male for rest of my years.  This is unacceptable.

If I transition then I may never work again.  This is unacceptable.

My therapist suggested I divorce my wife and live at my home so that I can move forward.

Full Moon I want to be pretty as if it will solve rest of my issues.  Do you know transgendered people suffer same conditions that rest of world suffers?  They are just transgendered.

Susan had very large impact on me.  I must solve my internal ugliness first in order to be beautiful on outside.

Today while shopping I overheard pair of men that walked back and forth past me say, " Yes he is transgendered."  I am not paranoid.  People notice and then get back to their business.  I was called "Sir" as I left store.  Lady was very nice but  can't they just say "Have a nice day."  I was dressed androgynous with pink nails and diamond rings, silver bracelet, and silver cross.  I know I look like a male but I do not present male.  Just leave out "Sir".   Just don't dismiss me because I have pink nails and big breasts.  I am a good person.

If everyone accepted me I would still want to be pretty.  However I feel it helps if you are pretty if you have confidence issues.

Of course, i think its part of human behavior to want to be pretty and attractive. I was especially worried about my appearance as a young teenager because in elementary and middle school i was always teased because of any single flaw people could point out mainly my weight, then my clothes. Once i hit puberty and i went to high school i stopped worrying about it and just went out as myself and even when i was a bit chubby i started getting attention from boys and i tell you the first time a boy said i was pretty it was a surreal feeling  and even when i was a "goth" girl in school- boys who i never even thought would talk to me much less compliment me- would flirt with me and wanna hang out. Later on in high school i became more feminine and carried myself with a lot of confidence and you can bet people especially guys were attracted to me. I then realized all this time i was my own biggest critic and every flaw that i thought i had or that bothered me was something other people didnt even notice. Once i stopped trying to fit into "beauty standards" i actually started feeling better about myself and started to like everything that made me unique- and i think it's great when a guy likes you for your unique qualities and features other than just your image. I believe once people accept themselves 4 who they are- any obsession with "being pretty" just fades away

*shrugs* I never was.

Im just obsessed with being ME!!!!!

But I guess I am pretty by gothic standards...

Quote from: Forever21Chic on August 11, 2011, 11:34:49 PM

   Men really don't know what women go through to look pretty. 

Umm Yes WE do...Ok well I do...My Gurrl takes 1 1/2 hours just to ghet her eye make-up correctly applied...which I might add...They look sexy-as-hell, when she is done with the two of them....

I enjoy looking good for my Lady...as a f2M...I  have always wished for an  Adonis/Apollo body...my "pecs" now,  are beautiful and, I HAVE abs...

So, yes I do understand what you Ladies go through, because I go through the same just to keep fit...and might I add, the "lot" of you WO-men are very beautiful and attractive...whether YOU think so or not....but hey, again, that's just me

Wendy,
thanks again for sharing some more of your tale.
You mention Aspersers Disease (an Autism spectrum disorder), um.
I lived 19 years with someone that has that --- are you quite sure? The way you post would not suggest that in the least.
In my long experience it has facets of manic-depressive/bi-polar and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I guess you would know how that will fit.

What I do want to mention, that your "obsession" with being "pretty" seems like a sort of coping mechanism I am WELL VERSED with. It can become counterproductive, work against you, because one uses one's "exterior" (NOTICEABLY TO MOST ALL AND SUNDRY) to try and overcome the internal insecurities i.e. I AM A GIRL, BUT DO NOT LOOK LIKE ONE.

This can be a lie, like sort of lying to your self.

Axelle

Quote from: madirocks on August 15, 2011, 01:36:08 PM
Wendy, that sounds awful to have to go through that. I hope I don't step my boundaries when I say that if the person you're married to is unable to accept who you are, then perhaps it's not meant to be. It would be understandable if it's an issue that just takes time, and patience to resolve. However, there is no resolve for being transgendered. I'd have a conversation with her about this if I were you, and again I'm sorry that's how your relationship is. It sounds to me like she either doesn't know, or is in denial.

It doesn't sound awful. That's how life works. Different people will always stand out, and they will always draw attention. How would you feel if person you are partners with, would draw so much attention and you would be mocked at? it's not nice, and everyone deserves to be treated properly... If you feel you are a woman - go through transition, but being "whatever" man using nail polish it's just funny and ridicilous. I dont wanna judge, but you surely need to figure out what you need and what you aim at, unless you wanna live as a freakshow full time.

Marelivki,
--- harsh comment yet it rings true.

Sometimes tough-love is the best in such a situation, - to change one's perception.

The point? If you make a clown, funny-man, of yourself on your own it's one thing, drawing a partner into it is actually unfair. Tragic comic.

Not everyone can expect to be so lucky to find complete acceptance along a smooth path of transition.
To make an omelet - you have to break some eggs. Unfortunately.

Axelle
PS: It IS all very sad but imagine what the other party is going through. Tragic.
PPS: Transition ultimately is one VERY selfish act. No one ever asked you to! Such a quandary!

Quote from: marelivki on August 17, 2011, 04:57:14 AM
It doesn't sound awful. That's how life works. Different people will always stand out, and they will always draw attention. How would you feel if person you are partners with, would draw so much attention and you would be mocked at? it's not nice, and everyone deserves to be treated properly... If you feel you are a woman - go through transition, but being "whatever" man using nail polish it's just funny and ridicilous. I dont wanna judge, but you surely need to figure out what you need and what you aim at, unless you wanna live as a freakshow full time.

I think you missed my point ENTIRELY! But it's okay. I can understand what you're saying though.

Transition is indeed selfish, but to a certain extent. It's also selfish to be unwilling to accept your significant other being different, and allowing them to continue down a path of what seems to me like self destruction. Is this justifiable for reputation sake? Granted, I said this before more of Wendy's story unfolded, but the idea is still there.

Quote from: Axélle on August 17, 2011, 10:15:21 AM
Not everyone can expect to be so lucky to find complete acceptance along a smooth path of transition.
To make an omelet - you have to break some eggs. Unfortunately.

Irony. You're absolutely right that not everyone can be so lucky. Then, break some eggs along your transition. If they don't accept you then guess what, they shouldn't be your friend. Does that mean that one shouldn't care what people think? Well, to a degree. But only to the extent of "okay, you hate me now for being who I am, I'm moving on."

A marriage is meant to be a bond between two people, with the support of either. Sometimes there are differences, which are understandable, and albeit changes that can be difficult changes are still necessary.

Are we talking about leaving the toilet seat up or dishes in the sink? Nope, those can be talked about and remedied. We're talking about a birth defect that cannot be fixed. Talking about it, and coming up with solutions was my point. And, if there's no agreement on either side well... it's time to move on!

Speaking with a therapist is a great start though.

I think that part of the reason why you feel so "ugly" inside is like what Axelle said, insecurity. It also has to do with hiding your true self. "A woman who is hiding invites others to do the same. 'Don't be vulnerable. Hide yourself.' A woman who makes herself vulnerable and available for intimacy invites others to do the same." You see, a woman's inner beauty comes from being vulnerable to others, secure in themselves, hopeful and not demanding, and offers her kindness and hopefulness to others. She is offering her heart.

I can't know exactly what your wife is going through, Wendy, or her side of the story. But, I will say that destroying yourself because of your significant other is not good at all. Has your wife come to any of your sessions? Maybe it would be good for her to go so she can better understand the situation.

Sorry for the TL;DR!! 

Quote from: marelivki on August 17, 2011, 04:57:14 AM
but being "whatever" man using nail polish it's just funny and ridicilous. I dont wanna judge, but you surely need to figure out what you need and what you aim at, unless you wanna live as a freakshow full time.

A woman can wear a man's clothes but not a man can not wear women's clothes.   I have logic issue in my head.  Years ago women were not accepted by society if they were not "Betty Crocker" image.

You are correct that wife does not need to get ridiculed because of me.  That is why I try to follow her wishes.

I happen to know a number of genetic women that walk like men, dress like men, talk like women, look like women, like other women and are accepted.  Years ago they were not accepted.

Actually I think men should be allowed to explore femininity and not be freaks. 

If a MTF transitioned and did not wear a wig and did not train their voice it would be different.  I know people like that and community talks about them.  They think they are odd but they accept them.  I am odd.

Nature loves diversity and society hates diversity.

..............................

Quote from: Axélle on August 17, 2011, 04:50:57 AM
You mention Aspersers Disease (an Autism spectrum disorder), um.
I lived 19 years with someone that has that --- are you quite sure? The way you post would not suggest that in the least.
In my long experience it has facets of manic-depressive/bi-polar and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder). I guess you would know how that will fit.

......................

Axelle my wife had me tested and treated for manic depressive and bipolar.  I am not those.  I do suffer from OCD.

She also had me tested for a multiple and I am not a multiple.

I do not have Aspergers Syndrom but my wife found what is called highly functional Aspergers.  It is a person that has some valuable skills but suffers many characteristics of Aspergers.  That is first time she has found something that has reasonable correlation.  Engineers and scientists and mathematicians can have highly functional Aspergers.
.......................

Actually I have one therapist that suggested years ago to try different things to help cope.  She said it also allows a person to see if they want to transition.  She suggested try earrings.  Try dressing up and going out. 

Society allows a little more than I thought but not a lot more.

With great effort I would pass.  FFS would help.  I look like a feminized old male in my presentation.

I never expected my wife to stay.  I had a good life with her and would not trade it.  It is difficult to lose everything.

My bad.

As Susan stated we must first repair ourselves from inside.

Quote from: wendy on August 17, 2011, 03:36:06 PM
A woman can wear a man's clothes but not a man can not wear women's clothes.   I have logic issue in my head.  Years ago women were not accepted by society if they were not "Betty Crocker" image.

You are correct that wife does not need to get ridiculed because of me.  That is why I try to follow her wishes.

I happen to know a number of genetic women that walk like men, dress like men, talk like women, look like women, like other women and are accepted.  Years ago they were not accepted.

Actually I think men should be allowed to explore femininity and not be freaks. 

If a MTF transitioned and did not wear a wig and did not train their voice it would be different.  I know people like that and community talks about them.  They think they are odd but they accept them.  I am odd.

Nature loves diversity and society hates diversity.

I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!

I think, as a generalization, that we all want to be attractive in some manner.  Some wish to be so due to societal expectations while others want to be just for themselves.  Unfortunately, American culture places a high emphasis on beauty.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 17, 2011, 07:02:34 PM
I think, as a generalization, that we all want to be attractive in some manner.  Some wish to be so due to societal expectations while others want to be just for themselves.  Unfortunately, American culture places a high emphasis on beauty.

Most people want to be attractive and most people like to look young.  Society tends to reserve word "pretty" for females and "handsome" for males.  I've had MTF's tell me I am handsome.  I have also heard FTM's complain because they look pretty.

Had group session this evening with about 40 people of which 10% were FTM.  I dressed as nice as I could.  I had a pretty blouse and capri and comfy mules.  I had my pink nails nice jewelry and my hair was nice.  I got addresses by several friends with my male name.

I saw a beautiful 16 year old in which her parents allowed her to have SRS from a top surgeon.

Chairwoman gave number of good sayings in which I will share one, "If you never yourself to fail then you will never succeed."

If I never try anything because I am so scared of being a freak then I will never transition.

One lady talked about life experiences that she has received being a woman that she would never have experience if she had not transitioned.  Her thoughts were inspirational and I felt a prettiness beyond just how I looked.

Quote from: wendy on August 11, 2011, 06:36:56 PM
It bothers me but I actually would like to be pretty  Do other people feel that way.

I obsess every single day!! I'm concerned every day with how I look and how well I'm dressed etc. I never have enough clothes, or shoes or accessories!!!!! I'm never satisfied with my lack of hips and lower natural waist, and dream daily of having my face fixed or getting a tummy tuck or fat transfer to my hips and butt, or breast augmentation!

Very obsessed!

Hayley,
you pretty well summed it up for me too.

Aren't we all in some way or other this way?
Granted if totally immersed in a work-/ income-process, it may well take a backseat --- but I guess only then.

Axelle