Generally speaking, they're (HR) going to want to know if you approached her first to express your feelings about what she'd said.  Not that you necessarily have to, but they're going to at least want to know why you didn't.  HR is there to help you, but if you're less then honest about why it offended you, there's a limit to what they can do to help you.

I'd let it go.  Now you know what kind of person she is.  If she keeps it up, tell her it offends you, you don't have to offer an explaination and I doubt she's going to assume anything.  If it doesn't stop, report her to her/your supervisor and let them handle it (often times just threatening this step is enough to get them to stop).

Fair warning, it's completely within your rights to complain over every perceived injustice (no matter how slight), however, it certainly won't make you all that appealing to your superiors.  You have the right to complain and they have the right to keep you as an "entry level" employee for the duration of your career with them.  In other words, it may serve you best to develop a thick(er) skin.

Now that I think about it, has anyone suggested you approach the employee that these comments were directed at and let her "handle it"?

Quote from: Maddie Secutura on August 14, 2011, 09:43:33 PM
Seriously, I think I'd rather be called "he" than "it."  I blame a lack of education. 

I could believe lack of education for "he." But "it" is total meanness.

Quote from: Samantharz on August 15, 2011, 09:16:15 AM
Thank you everyone for your input. I'm still torn between talking to a manager and approaching her myself.

I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but you are already on a no-win trajectory. You should have confronted her immediately when it happened. Not outed yourself, but told her that it was a mean-spirited thing to say about another human being. That could have put an end to it. But because you let it go by, the next step, whichever you choose it to be, will be an escalation. Don't expect it to end well.

Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 12:25:07 PM
Generally speaking, they're (HR) going to want to know if you approached her first to express your feelings about what she'd said.  Not that you necessarily have to, but they're going to at least want to know why you didn't.  HR is there to help you, but if you're less then honest about why it offended you, there's a limit to what they can do to help you.

Yes and no...there is not an obligation in a sexual harassment/EEO issue to directly confront the offender.  And one need not be the direct target in order for there to be a cognizable claim.  Whether it rises to the level of a formal finding that the conduct truly creates a hostile work environment is entirely a fact-driven question...

Of course the other issue with third-party harassment claims is that it creates the setting by which the reporting party then becomes known as a troublemaker in the eyes of management (since it IS information that would generally be shared with those making the decisions). 

QuoteFair warning, it's completely within your rights to complain over every perceived injustice (no matter how slight), however, it certainly won't make you all that appealing to your superiors.  You have the right to complain and they have the right to keep you as an "entry level" employee for the duration of your career with them.  In other words, it may serve you best to develop a thick(er) skin.

or worse...the company decides during a probationary period that the company and new employee are simply 'not working out.'

EEO issues are NEVER a one-size-fits-all sort of thing.  The last one I worked with a client on was an outcropping of the employee disciplinary matter for which we had been retained to represent them on...and when I broached the ADA component to why the order was invalid, the hearing was recessed and it was about six or eight months before we were back on record.  In the meantime, we had drafted a seven-page Complaint to ensure compliance with agency policy.  We won the disciplinary hearing when all was said and done but the employee/client was one of four in that Section who was RIF'ed during some State cutbacks earlier this year (and not long after the hearing).

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 15, 2011, 06:42:04 AM
Such letters are often available in disciplinary proceedings as well as litigation.  Anonymity is rarely a protectable interest in such instances...

I didn't sign on for a cause all those years ago nor have I had cause to wish I had someone coming to my rescue.  Some of us are quite content to go on living life, especially when that life has been free of 'discrimination.'

well lucky you and me but i don't care that i passed as i did when i camped out at the US capital in 2002 during the senate confirmation hearings on E.N.D.A. and why trans people were not included and the republican staffers came out to talk to me and asked me why was i protesting for "those people", i said BECAUSE I AM ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.. They looked at me and sighed

Look, so you pass, you may not one day or your past may come out and there will be a time that karma knocks you down for not doing the right thing, which is AT LEAST STICKING UP FOR THE SISTER AND SUPPORTING HER AND SAYING WELL ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN BEING GAY OR LESBIAN OR BLACK ETC ETC discrimination is discrimination

sheesh some passing people have no integrity

Quote from: M2MtF2FtM on August 15, 2011, 01:45:06 PM
Look, so you pass, you may not one day or your past may come out and there will be a time that karma knocks you down for not doing the right thing, which is AT LEAST STICKING UP FOR THE SISTER AND SUPPORTING HER AND SAYING WELL ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN BEING GAY OR LESBIAN OR BLACK ETC ETC discrimination is discrimination

sheesh some passing people have no integrity

I guess it takes integrity to take comments out of context.  What you quoted was in response to someone else having posted that they hate stealth.  Some of us PREFER stealth.  That is OUR choice to make.  Having been born transsexual and seeking out medical intervention to correct the condition is simply a stage of life for some of us, not an identity that we choose to wear like a sign.  I'm not an effing cause nor does integrity require that I go to the aid of any cause simply because someone might have had the same defect of birth that I had.

But hey, thanks for reminding me of yet another reason I chose to walk off into the sunset all those years ago...

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 15, 2011, 02:01:16 PM
But hey, thanks for reminding me of yet another reason I chose to walk off into the sunset all those years ago...

I (will) choose to support improved access to transgender specific health care needs from pre-transition (ie, early access, lifting of insurance "restrictions", etc) through surgical interventions and including post-op medical needs since the nature of our bodies is so unique (try seeking care for prostate cancer as a post-op).  Outside of that I intend to live my life as a woman, people can choose to identify me as transgender or not.

I'm not going to make it my mission in life otherwise...

The sense of irony is strong with this one. I'd just tell her, "that's just rude!" Maybe concoct some story about a friend with cerebral palsy and how they got called "it" a lot; how terrible it made them feel. I hope it all turns out well nonetheless.

Quote from: Whitney on August 15, 2011, 03:03:23 PM
The sense of irony is strong with this one. I'd just tell her, "that's just rude!" Maybe concoct some story about a friend with cerebral palsy and how they got called "it" a lot; how terrible it made them feel. I hope it all turns out well nonetheless.

Why not just leave it at that's rude?

Chances are if she understands you're not interested in hearing her insults she'll quit doing it anyways.  If you don't give her an audience, she'll move on to someone who will.  No need for back storys.

  there's been a few times where people had the nerve to call my aunt an "it" right in front of me and as hard as i try i can never control my anger. Im a very nice person but i admit ive turned into a huge bitch in these instances and people go away feeling more emberrased than they tried to make my aunt feel.

Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 03:11:07 PM
Why not just leave it at that's rude?

Chances are if she understands you're not interested in hearing her insults she'll quit doing it anyways.  If you don't give her an audience, she'll move on to someone who will.  No need for back storys.

As Ben Linus said, "Haven't I already told you John? I always have a plan." I just like to know what I'm going to say in advance if the other party decides to pursue it. I'm not the fastest to formulate a half decent response in these kinds of situations, so planning ahead has become a necessity for me. I never would intend to throw a story like that out unprovoked. 

Quote from: Lisbeth on August 15, 2011, 01:06:39 PM
I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but you are already on a no-win trajectory. You should have confronted her immediately when it happened. Not outed yourself, but told her that it was a mean-spirited thing to say about another human being. That could have put an end to it. But because you let it go by, the next step, whichever you choose it to be, will be an escalation. Don't expect it to end well.

Not necessarily.  If this girl brings it up again, that would be the right time to say something (along the lines of the above quote) in my opinion.  If not, I'm not sure if there's much point in taking any further action.  I always tend to give people the benefit of the doubt unless problematic behavior repeats itself in a way that can show a pattern.

First, as someone observed, it would be useful to know the company's policy on such behavior. Second, why can't you report to your higher-ups that you have heard some talk (don't be specific about who is talking) and are wondering whether the company ever does workshops in sexual harassment, tolerance, and sensitivity. Or something like that.

You might even be able to do this anonymously. Does your workplace have a suggestion box?

You can very easily communicate with HR without revealing who you are. They understand about privacy and the comfort level of individuals (it is kind of their job).

Basically, they are there to help resolve issues in the workplace...and you can tell them how you would like the issue resolved (often they will take it as long as it is reasonable).

So, my long letter would be from a dummy email and I wouldn't mention my name (simply stating I am an employee in the park). I would probably request they have management speak to her (on the behalf of all transgendered people in the park)... and perhaps request addressing the entire workforce with a reminder that such behaviour is not acceptable.

As for people in stealth who feel the issues of other trans people isn't their concern... that it the exact reason we have such trouble moving forward. Like it or not, we are part of the same minority. Like it or not, the only way a minority gains acceptance is when they stand up together.

It would be like successful black men and women never standing up for other black people. Afterall, they aren't subject to the discrimination their "birth defect" causes... they have money, they aren't rejected by their community... so not their problem, right?

The LGB community has gained so much in the last 30 years because they started coming out of the closet and standing together. They tried the exact same "stealth" as trans people do now. Hiding in fear just means the bigotry continues unchallenged.

There are plenty of LGB people who feel absolutely no need to broadcast their sexuality because to them it'd just another part of who they are, rather than the single most important thing about them...why should the T part of the queer community be any different?

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 15, 2011, 06:12:45 PM
There are plenty of LGB people who feel absolutely no need to broadcast their sexuality because to them it'd just another part of who they are, rather than the single most important thing about them...why should the T part of the queer community be any different?

Of course there are going to be people afraid to come out. Coming out in a dangerous place is simply stupid.

But there are many ways to help besides that (donating money for example to causes which target trans community or try to educate the public). Or even anonymous letters sticking up for injustices / bigotry you see.

Anyone in a minority that doesn't help in some way is selfish. They sit back and enjoy the benefits which come from the many sacrifices others make on THEIR behalf.

But, the best way, the one which makes the most change... are the strong brave ones which stand up proudly as what they are. They show that the minority isn't simply some abstract idea which only exists in "big cities" or as sleezy prostitutes... they show that we are normal and loving people who deserve every right that others enjoy.

And they do it not for themselves... they do it for all those less fortunate. All those hiding in fear. In hopes that one day those in "stealth" can actually come out and be free to be what they are without being judged.

Sometimes stealth is needed... it keeps you safe. But it seems like a sad existance constantly under the shadow of fear (but one necessary in certain places). But many take it too far, they completely shut themselves off from "those other people"... even when it is no longer an issue of safety. They become selfish and turn a blind eye to others like them, ignoring that had they been a little less fortunate they might have been one of "those people" unable to hide or subject to bigotry and suffering.

And the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).

Again, if we don't stand up for eachother... you really think random people will champion our causes for us? Who is going to fight for trans rights and trans support if not us?

Gay people have found pride in what they are. They have come to a point of self acceptance where they can stand up proudly and say "I'm gay, there is nothing wrong with me and I will challenge anyone that has a problem with that".... but it seems the trans community still largely slinks in the corner and sadly whispers "I have a birth defect, I was born wrong".

I'm with Rabbit.

Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
And the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).

Becuase every successful minority is made to feel inadequate by those less fortunate if they don't some how singlehandedly save the rest of the minority class from their own bad decisions.  Why should someone feel forced to give up their "extra" income?  Exactly how is it up to you to decide that it is extra income?  What is this mysterious "influence" you speak of and why should I use it for your benefit?

Actually I really don't like the tone of any of it, now that I think about it, "managed to succeed" implies that I was likely to fail from the beginning and somehow overcame it or that by being transgender, somehow I was a failure to begin with.  I am successful because I worked hard, set high goals for myself and them and didn't make excuses for myself along the way.  That I some how owe something to someone unwilling to do those things is just plain offensive.

Quote from: Rabbit on August 15, 2011, 07:11:36 PM
Of course there are going to be people afraid to come out. Coming out in a dangerous place is simply stupid.

Why is it that if some of us choose to be stealth that it is presumed we are afraid to come out?  The reality is that being a former transsexual is not a label some of us need to wear.  Hell, there are people that don't realize I am lesbian until I tell them, but that is usually because they were trying to set me up with one of their straight friends. 

The reality is not not all of us choose to continue to wear the label of transsexual once medical intervention and correction has occurred.  The sooner some choose to recognize that fact, the better off others might be...

QuoteBut there are many ways to help besides that (donating money for example to causes which target trans community or try to educate the public). Or even anonymous letters sticking up for injustices / bigotry you see.

And yet some presume that does not occur already.  Although the quickest way to ensure my checkbook or credit cards stay hidden away is to put that insipid 'transgender' label on the efforts. 

I've got my annual effort in place by having ensured a rather high profile individual did not get perp-walked...

QuoteAnyone in a minority that doesn't help in some way is selfish. They sit back and enjoy the benefits which come from the many sacrifices others make on THEIR behalf.

Not all of us choose to place ourselves in a position to wear the label of 'minority.'  Last I checked, women were not in the minority category.  And outside of lesbian, woman is the title I have worn for the better part of the past 20 years, including ~15 post-operatively.  I might have been more willing to be more vocal if some would choose to listen to those of us that reject the 'transgender' labeling and umbrella...but since some of us are ignored, it becomes easier to get on with our respective lives.

QuoteAnd the trans community is notoriously in very bad positions economically / socially. That is even more reason for those who have managed to succeed to lend their support. The ones fortunate enough to actually be capable of making a difference (with extra income they could easily spare, or influence they could easily flex).

Again, if we don't stand up for eachother... you really think random people will champion our causes for us? Who is going to fight for trans rights and trans support if not us?

Some of us who DO have the discretionary funds happen to feel that sufficient laws exist on the books to protect those who have had surgical intervention...and no, as a pre-emptive comment, quite frankly, I don't feel I owe anything to those who elect not to have surgical intervention.

QuoteGay people have found pride in what they are. They have come to a point of self acceptance where they can stand up proudly and say "I'm gay, there is nothing wrong with me and I will challenge anyone that has a problem with that".... but it seems the trans community still largely slinks in the corner and sadly whispers "I have a birth defect, I was born wrong".

I don't see the need to advertise that I had a birth defect.  I make no bones about being lesbian because I do view that as a component of my identity.  Being transsexual is NOT a part of my identity.  It is a part of my medical history, but NOT my identity.  It has no bearing on my life going forward.  It also was not something I made a significant issue of in my 20's when I was undergoing medical intervention.  My willingness to be out pretty much ended when I had surgery...and the limits of being out consisted of speaking to graduate classes at a major university as a quid pro quo for a prof who wrote my second letter for surgery.  And had I not transitioned while finishing the degree, I don't know that THOSE sessions would have occurred...

Everyone chooses different ways to live their lives... No one is obligated to give back to the community in any way. Stay away from my "discretionary" income.

I speak and I mentor, but there is no way I'm donating my money anywhere...

Quote from: regan on August 15, 2011, 08:44:27 PM
Becuase every successful minority is made to feel inadequate by those less fortunate if they don't some how singlehandedly save the rest of the minority class from their own bad decisions. 

Because history has shown us that is how those who are discriminated against move forward and up in society (and eventually hopefully gain equality). When groups don't do this type of "together" movement and fight only for individual lives, they stay easy targets for society to pick on and abuse.

Singlehandedly? Nope. It is something everyone needs to work together towards...or it doesn't happen.

QuoteActually I really don't like the tone of any of it, now that I think about it, "managed to succeed" implies that I was likely to fail from the beginning and somehow overcame it or that by being transgender, somehow I was a failure to begin with.

The cards are stacked against you when you are a minority (have you seen the latest study of transgendered people? it is very clear our being trans is a big cause for the issues many have). This isn't just because everyone is "lazy", sometimes sure, but by and large we (when we don't "pass") are held back and not given the opportunities other have.

Yes, some of us are fortunate... but those who aren't have no one else to turn to but us. If the successful ones in the trans community don't give a hand, there will be no one else.

But maybe this is a cultural difference? I am jewish, so I guess I was raised with this more communal look on things. I feel empathy for those who are hurt and discriminated against for the same "condition" as I have. I also was taught that a strong person doesn't use their strength simply to take things for themselves... they use their strength to help those who aren't as strong.

I know I would want others to come to my aid were things reversed. It is what a good person does.... it is the right thing to do... I just can't only think of myself. And, in helping others, I help create a better world which also affects me. So, even if you only want to think of yourself, isn't it better to help society move towards a point where YOU are accepted? When you are 60, do you still want to be hiding and afraid?

QuoteWhy is it that if some of us choose to be stealth that it is presumed we are afraid to come out?

Because those in stealth ARE afraid.

Maybe not of physical violence. But of being called "it". Of being stared at. Of being whispered about behind your back. Of being judged. Of having your trans status mean more to people than who you are.

That is EXACTLY why people go stealth. To avoid all those negative things... that is fear.

When society comes to a point where being trans means about as much as the color of your eyes, there wouldn't be a need for stealth... there wouldn't be a need for fear.

If you are stealth, you probably went through great lengths to hide your "past life". You probably are careful about what you talk to your doctor about in earshot of others. You (if you aren't in a relationship) are probably very nervous about dating and needing to reveal to your partner about your past. Being stealth isn't about just not mentioning you are trans and going on with your life, it is a CONSTANT existance where "the secret" is maintained. I have heard younger trans stealth girls talk about the anxiety they feel... worries at work about being discovered... or the OP here who worries that speaking up to defend a transperson might "out" her.

You tell me this isn't out of fear? It is the very definition of it.

QuoteLast I checked, women were not in the minority category.

Not minority, but discriminated against. Go back 50 years before the womens movement and the "woman label" would have brought you a lot of trouble in life (or just go to a country where women are still seen as objects).

QuoteSome of us who DO have the discretionary funds happen to feel that sufficient laws exist on the books to protect those who have had surgical intervention...and no, as a pre-emptive comment, quite frankly, I don't feel I owe anything to those who elect not to have surgical intervention.

I find this sad Both because you think the "laws on the books" are plenty enough for trans people...

And that you feel those who haven't had "the surgery" somehow deserve to be discriminated against

I find this very sad.

QuoteI don't see the need to advertise that I had a birth defect.

I don't see what I was born as a "birth defect". I am proud of what I am. Being trans wasn't a "condition" that i was cured of, it is a description of my mind and body (and history). It would be the same as saying being half latino and half white is a "birth defect". Why is having qualities of both genders (mental and/ or physical) a bad thing? Yes it is a little unusual, but it is just as beautiful as any "cis gendered" person.

And I don't want to be forced to hide it. I reject the idea that society is trying to push on me that this is something dirty and disgusting. I have had an interesting life and have unique viewpoints stemming from this "condition", I don't want to hide this. I want to talk freely about my experiences and life with those I meet. You can only call something a birth "defect" when it is a worse condition than being born "normal"... this DEFINITELY isn't a defect, I am just as good (if not better) than "normal" for having been born this way.

So I speak up (when safe). And I speak up loudly.... how DARE others try to tell me what I am is disgusting. In fact, today I was on a gaming board "setting the record straight" on trans people. ( http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/official--best-traps--thread-/1234939?page=9 ) I won't slink away in shame ... I have nothing to be ashamed about.