So I feel really uncomfortable at the gym.  I hate using the men's locker room for many reasons and, especially since I just started on hormones, really just want to get out of my contract.  I have a lot other options for working out.  I'm thinking of emailing the manager and basically saying that I'm transgendered and don't feel comfortable with the segregated locker rooms and I think the best thing for everyone would be if they let me terminate my contract with no fee.  I'm unsure of the best way to phrase it to make this happen.  The truth is I'm genderqueer and just hate locker rooms, but should I say that I'm transitioning to female and want to use the women's one?  What if they say yes?  A person with both breasts and a penis would make most members their in either locker room uncomfortable, but what if they tell me it's my choice of which to use?  I could just use some advice from anyone who has been through anything similar. 

Thanks!

I'm no lawyer, but you signed a contract and now you want out of it becuase it doesn't suit you anymore?  I hate to be the one to tell you, but they're not going to let you out.  Health clubs love to sign people into contracts, knowing full well the majority of them will show up a couple times and then never again, meanwhile the club has a steady stream of income for 12 to 18 months.

Citing the locker room issue won't work since using or not using the locker room doesn't prevent you from using the services of the club (working out).  I didn't know that people actually used the locker rooms at the average health club (in my experience the men's locker room is just a pick up joint for older gay men anyways).  Women's locker rooms from what I understand aren't full of naked women running loose either.  Its been my experience women have even more body image issues then men do and are extremely shy in a locker room environment.

The bottom line is the club isn't going to do you any favors (and that's what your asking them to do).  Reread your contract, you may be able to cancel it after a period of time (half the original contract I think) and pay a termination fee.  Or you may be stuck for the duration of the contract.

Could it work?  Perhaps.  But not from you.  You need to have a lawyer send them some hate mail.  They won't budge at all until they see a lawyers letterhead.

Well, I wouldn't be asking them to do me a favor.  My first inclination was to tell them I'm a woman and if they don't let me use the woman's locker room I'll make it a discrimination issue.  This is a large chain and they don't need that publicity for one person's membership.  I mean, they let people out of their contract just for moving more than 25 miles from a gym.  And you can imagine what they'll have to deal with from female members who don't like seeing an androgyne in the locker room.  First of all, I *just* started on HRT so it's not like I would "pass" as a woman, if that was even my aim.  Second, I don't know what you mean by "extremely shy," but you do realize that changing clothes means you're naked for a period time right?  It's not like men in this gym walk around naked in the locker room either.  I think everyone's about the same in that sense...

Anyway, I'll tell them their reactions would make me uncomfortable as well so ideally I'd like out of my contract so I could go to a personal training gym instead.  This is what I meant by better for everyone. 

Quote from: tekla on August 15, 2011, 10:59:45 PM
Could it work?  Perhaps.  But not from you.  You need to have a lawyer send them some hate mail.  They won't budge at all until they see a lawyers letterhead.

Thanks.  There are several free legal resources for trans people here, but I might feel bad about approaching them with something so trivial in comparison to really serious discrimination.  Although, the professional organization of health clubs did work to squash GENDA in the NY state senate. 

As was noted above, the perceived inability to use a locker room does not negate a contract that you voluntarily entered into.  Further, there exists the issue of this being a chain and you thus having other locations that you could go to for the purposes of a 'fresh start.' 

Could the contract be broken?  I won't say no because I have gotten people out of contracts on lesser grounds with just an initial letter on letterhead.  But I (and my friend) were probably helped by my office being within sight distance of the courthouse (and easily within a five minute walk if I had to wait for lights to turn so I was not crossing against traffic).  The fact that I can nitpick the hell out of most contracts that allow for unilateral breach also likely helped...

The broader question may come down to how much time you have left on the contract and whether it is worth the $200 for the hour of time to get a letter from someone with letterhead who would be willing to litigate the issue if push came to shove...

I don't know what you mean by "fresh start."  If I were to keep going there, I would be changing in the women's locker room and not doing anything out of the ordinary to hide the fact that I have a penis, am TWO WEEKS into hormons, haven't had my face lasered yet...basically look like a man...because I shouldn't have to! 

And what's with this talk of litigation?  The contract is only worth a couple thousand dollars!  That would be small claims court.  It's not even worth the time their lawyers would bill to discuss it!  And do they really need to be called out as transphobic bigots in any type of publicity, no matter how small?  I live in Manhattan, that's not really cool here.  And if there's any doubt, I'm not saying business should be forced to redesign everything, but sex segregated facilities do ultimately discriminate against many people.  Like I said, that's why the gyms lobbied against Genda...

Look, I don't know why I even asked this here.  I'm just going to politely email the manager and say I can get a physician's letter about the hormones.  These people are reasonable, they're not ->-bleeped-<-s.  If she gives me any ->-bleeped-<- I can always reach out to Lambda Legal or whoever. 

I'm not sure how comfortable I feel about someone using false trans issues to manipulate sittuations

But then again, if your uncomfortable for trans issues...sure, email them and ask nicely. No harm in that. Contracts don't always need lawyers to get out of, there actually are ~gasp~ reasonable people in the world.

Quote from: Lillet on August 15, 2011, 11:38:38 PM
And what's with this talk of litigation?  The contract is only worth a couple thousand dollars!  That would be small claims court.  It's not even worth the time their lawyers would bill to discuss it! 

ANY lawsuit, no matter WHAT level of court, is litigation.  The term encompasses a lot more than cases with teams of lawyers representing their client's interest(s).   And never underestimate what a company might be willing to spend in defense of a contract.  I know of one civil case in the Dallas area recently where the underlying amount was only a few hundred bucks...company got sued and elected to fight the suit.  After they prevailed, they were also awarded about $30K in legal fees. 

QuoteAnd do they really need to be called out as transphobic bigots in any type of publicity, no matter how small?  I live in Manhattan, that's not really cool here.  And if there's any doubt, I'm not saying business should be forced to redesign everything, but sex segregated facilities do ultimately discriminate against many people.  Like I said, that's why the gyms lobbied against Genda...

The fact that they do not want to break from a binary mode of locker room operations does NOT make them 'transphobic' nor does it make them 'bigots.' Personally, the moment any gym I belonged to decided to do away with separate men and women's locker rooms is the moment that I leave that establishment.  And I would fully expect a corporate gym to which I belonged to lobby against legislation that might serve to force me to have something other than a sex-segregated locker room...especially if I were a member of a gym that had the women's sauna in the locker room itself.  I've also been a guest at a gym that had a women's only pool in addition to the sauna...and since there was a level of nudity present, it is not at all unreasonable for members to NOT want a pre-op in that environment. 

The reality is that you CHOSE to enter into the contract and it is presumed that prior to signing it, you READ every provision of the contract.  And, as noted, one need not actually have access to the locker room in order to utilize the other facilities. 

Sex segregated facilities are clearly discriminatory against genderqueer individuals.  I guess you identify as binary and choose to support this discrimination yourself rather than remembering the adversity you face as a binary trans person.  That is sad. 

What is more confusing than sad is that  you say you would be in full support of a business that lobbied in support of employers being able to fire people simply because they're transgendered, among other types of discrimination. 

http://www.queerty.com/did-your-gym-membership-help-squash-trans-rights-in-new-york-is-your-state-next-20100610/

Quote from: Lillet on August 16, 2011, 10:15:38 AM
Sex segregated facilities are clearly discriminatory against genderqueer individuals.  I guess you identify as binary and choose to support this discrimination yourself rather than remembering the adversity you face as a binary trans person.  That is sad. 

What is sad is your presumption that I faced any measurable adversity back in the days of transitioning...or that I face any NOW.  Not all of us look for issues hiding under every nook and cranny upon which to place blame for an event that might remotely have been associated with a medical condition for which treatment has been rendered. 

QuoteWhat is more confusing than sad is that  you say you would be in full support of a business that lobbied in support of employers being able to fire people simply because they're transgendered, among other types of discrimination. 

In a State that was not at-will, I would continue to opine that existing laws are more than sufficient.  And in an at-will State, quite frankly, I *DO* get concerned at a carve-out for what appears to be a special right.  And beyond that, no, I will never support legislation that incorporates that insipid 'transgender' term...   

But at this juncture, my guess is you just want to argue politics.  In just a short period of time you have taken a thread that was ostensibly about an ability to get out of a contract that you voluntarily entered into (with a company that you now proclaim has always been engaged in 'clearly discriminatory' actions) and shifted it to veiled personal attacks and discussions of employment law.  If you want to go back to discussing contract law as it relates to a health club contract, then please do so...otherwise I see little else to be accomplished by ANYONE in this thread. 

Some gym memberships can be transferred/sold to another person. People advertise on the noticeboard.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 16, 2011, 10:23:20 AM
In a State that was not at-will, I would continue to opine that existing laws are more than sufficient.  And in an at-will State, quite frankly, I *DO* get concerned at a carve-out for what appears to be a special right.  And beyond that, no, I will never support legislation that incorporates that insipid 'transgender' term...   

Hmm, internalized transphobia anyone?  So, let me get this clear.  Are you saying that you think employers shouldn't be able to fire people just because of their race or sexual orientation, but they should because their gender is different from what they were assigned at birth?  Or are you pro racism and homophobia as well?

Quote from: Lillet on August 16, 2011, 10:41:26 AM
Hmm, internalized transphobia anyone?  So, let me get this clear.  Are you saying that you think employers shouldn't be able to fire people just because of their race or sexual orientation, but they should because their gender is different from what they were assigned at birth?  Or are you pro racism and homophobia as well?

I think Ann has left the room on this one, so I'll feel free to take point...

What your asking/threatening is covered most closely by the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA).  HOWEVER, gender identity/presentation is specifically EXCLUDED from that legislation.  Further, while "reasonable accomodation" is required, public venues are not required to meet that standard IF meeting it causes the public venue to suffer undue harm (in this case financial) or the covered individual (with accomodation) still presents a threat to the health and safety of others.

Do you really want to pursue this?  If you take them to court when they most certainly tell you they're not letting you out of the contract, they will call any number of people to testify that your presence in EITHER locker room is a threat to their health and safety.  That is if you, or your attorney, don't agree to the stipulation ahead of time.  Futher, allowing you to change in the locker room of your choice would force them to allow anyone who requested it to change in the locker room of their choice.  I'm sure you see where this is going, when they can easily demonstrate how accomodating your request would seriously cause them financial harm (the fitness market is fiercely competitive in most markets and their other members will flee like rats off a sinking ship), no judge is going to agree with you.

Of course as Ann pointed out, they can then recover their legal costs from YOU.

As for the rest of your posts, rants and personal attacks aside, the world we live in is still quite binary.  Maybe its not in whatever educational setting you find yourself it, but here in the real world it is very much still binary.  You can be free to choose to express your gender identity however you choose, but just becuase someone points out the reality of the situation - that the world we live in is indeed homophobic, sexist, transphobic, you name - and that you will most certainly face that discrimination for the choices you make does not make them (or me) any of those things.  No one is required to hire someone who threatens the livelihood of their business.  Unless you plan on working in some pretty unsavory places, your options are pretty limited.  There are very few "public" places, private venues have the right to refuse admission to anyone at any time, for any reason.  That's the reality of your situation.

Personally, I don't care; do what makes you happy, but don't throw around personal insults when somone doesn't support you, or simply points out the reality of the choices you make.

Ok, look.  I have two main points here:

1.  If anyone cares to read what I've actually written here, they'll see that I repeatedly say I DO NOT WANT TO TAKE LEGAL ACTION, although that seems like all anyone wants to talk about.  I was writing to ask for help dealing with this politely on an interpersonal level.

2.  My points about GENDA are not about where the law currently stands, but where I'd like to see it.  Ann has explicitly stated that she thinks it is morally correct for gender identity/presentation to be excluded from ADA and similar legislation.  Furthermore, she has implied that ADA shouldn't even exist at all and that businesses should have the freedom to discriminate on any grounds they choose.  I find this greatly offensive. 

The reason I suggested it's a sign of internalized transphobia is because, looking through Ann's past posts, she seems to have a long history of opposition to people who (like me) actively identify as transgender due to her (understandable) desire to be seen as simply a woman and nothing more.  This inability to accept the identity of others and the adversity they face, even thought it differs from her own, represents a personal attack; my calling her out on it does not. 

That is all.  I'm now going to stop following this thread and try and find a transgender forum that doesn't hate the word transgender.  Maybe it's because I'm from New York City, but the sentiment expressed in this thread seems shockingly conservative. 

Quote from: Lillet on August 16, 2011, 01:20:03 PM
That is all.  I'm now going to stop following this thread....

Since Lillet will no longer be following this thread, I will lock it.