I absolutely mean no offense by this post, for starters.

I was at an LGBT club last night and was talking to two people who were presenting as what I would say "definitely" female, but I could still read them as biologically male. I avoided using pronouns with them because I didn't know if they identified as men and enjoyed wearing women's clothes or if they identified as women and their body betrayed them. I thought it would be rude to ask for obvious reasons, as we had just met.

My question is, is there a way to "tell" if a person is a crossdresser rather than a woman? I would venture to say that, in my experience, trans women dress and act more conservatively than crossdressers, but I'm looking for your advice/opinions. Additionally, do you think it would be offensive to a crossdresser to refer to them with female pronouns? I'm not very well versed in cd and don't know if they like to still be referred to as men while in female mode, so forgive me if I sound ignorant. I just don't want to upset anyone and try to be as respectful of identity as possible.

I don't think there's any harm in politely asking them.

Quote from: regan on August 18, 2011, 01:20:26 PM
I don't think there's any harm in politely asking them.

I thought about that, but in the earlier stages of my transition it was mortifying to be asked "are you a girl or a boy" so I just didn't want to open a can of worms.

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 18, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
I thought about that, but in the earlier stages of my transition it was mortifying to be asked "are you a girl or a boy" so I just didn't want to open a can of worms.

How would you have wanted it handled?  I guess let that be your guide. 

I would think a crossdresser would take female pronouns as a compliment. Mmm, I don't want to generalize lol but when I think about crossdressers, I would think they'd be more likely to have heavier make-up and a flashier outfit.

The running joke at one function I went to about 25 years ago that had some of each in attendance was that the transsexuals were the ones in comfortable shoes and clothing...sure it may be a stereotype, but it was certainly accurate that evening. 

And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual

yeah, what i said about the transwomen i've met being "more conservative" than the crossdressers was a bit of an understatement. it ventures on being rude, but many of the crossdressers i've seen bring one word to mind: stripper. but it's not as if some women don't dress up like strippers and go to clubs all the time..

While crossdressers may not identify as female they can have a female persona they go out as and would probably like female pronouns.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual

What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

When I identified as a crossdresser, my makeup was indeed heavier. But, that was before the laser and I needed heavier layers to cover the beard shadow. Otherwise, my presentation then was pretty much as my en femme presentation now: understated but feminine, "in comfortable shoes and clothing."

In any case, I preferred female pronouns whether as a man crossdressed as a woman or as a transwoman en femme.

These days, I'm both a transwoman and a crossdresser. But, it's my male (bio) presentation that I consider to be crossdressed. My therapist calls it male-drag. 

To answer your question, I think the only way to tell would be to try to skillfully ask about transition. That's happened to me a couple of times now. The questions were asked in a curious and respectful manner and I answered them respectfully.

Quote from: Jameve on August 18, 2011, 01:45:23 PM
While crossdressers may not identify as female they can have a female persona they go out as and would probably like female pronouns.

My female persona's name was Donna Alvolte, which basically translates to "lady at times." 

When I go out en femme now, I use the name Connie, which will be my name when I can legally change it.

is it the general consensus though that it probably wouldn't be offensive to use female pronouns for someone who is obviously presenting in a female mode, even if that's not how they identify? unless they ask you otherwise of course.

I would think asking "What pronoun do you prefer?" is the most sensitive way to ask.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 01:48:25 PM
What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

My rule of thumb is that you're never going to offend a transgendered person by referring to them as the gender that they present as.  I think this holds true wether you identify as transsexual, ->-bleeped-<- or indeed FTM or MTF.

It just gets tricky when people present as androgynous, in which case politely asking would be the way go in my opinion.

Siobhan.

^--- this. If you need to ask, ask politely, is what I meant. If someone presents unambiguously as male/female, treat them that way.

Quote from: Renate on August 18, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

that's why i don't want to ask

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

Could it just be the bars you go to...almost that the culture is to look down on women who want to look feminine so people dress to fit in rather than how they want. Because my local club there are plenty of girls in dresses...I'm sure they're not all crossdressers.

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 02:17:09 PM
Could it just be the bars you go to...almost that the culture is to look down on women who want to look feminine so people dress to fit in rather than how they want. Because my local club there are plenty of girls in dresses...I'm sure they're not all crossdressers.

I have no doubt that lesbian bars in some other part of the world could be different from what I experience in Texas...