Quote from: SiobhanB on August 18, 2011, 02:05:15 PM
My rule of thumb is that you're never going to offend a transgendered person by referring to them as the gender that they present as.  I think this holds true wether you identify as transsexual, ->-bleeped-<- or indeed FTM or MTF.

It just gets tricky when people present as androgynous, in which case politely asking would be the way go in my opinion.

Siobhan.

Actually, it isn't that straightforward. Most butch women (dressed in male clothes) would be pretty offended to be referred to as "he," and in a mixed LGBT event it's likely there would be some. It is safer going the other direction, but not always. There is a reason people are extremely embarrassed when they misgender someone. It is a HUGE faux pas.

Usually for people I'm not sure about, I just drop gendered language entirely. I don't use much gendered language in general anyway.

If you're in a close enough inter-personal contact that you are talking with anyone, you should have learned or should ask their name. Lacking formal introduction, use of the presenting gender pronoun/title I think is fine, though a club setting is a bit informal for Mr/Ms/Miss/etc. If they have an ambiguous presentation they should not have reason to take offense. I find I have to correct people from time to time, particularly over drive-thru speakers (darn male voice). I take no offense at out-of-sight guesses, or at one-time face-to-face ones. Continued misuse is another matter.

Susan Kay

Around here, the majority of the women I see out for the evening are in dresses.

From the novel I'm currently reading (published 2009):
"In jeans and an L.L.Bean shirt, she realized her mistake as soon as she walked in. This was a Girls' Night Out, and these Girls were definitely making the most of it. ...skin-tight aqua dress, high heels... ...green and white print dress with flat jeweled sandals... ...an assortment of cute dresses and tight jeans, with lots of makeup and jewelry."

lesbian bars in some other part of the world could be different from what I experience in Texas

Yeee Hah!  I'll just bet that's true.  Works for just about every other bar I've been to in Texas (granted mostly Austin, still).  There are just places that have their very own unique bar deal(s) going on and Texas is sure a bunch of them.  So I'm sure that the lesbian hang outs and bars in San Francisco and Berkeley are not exactly like Houston.  However, there is a huge basic crossover in iconography that unites stuff too, so that biker bars in Texas still are more like biker bars in other places - all local color aside.  So I'll bet there are five or so 'lesbian bar icons' that are repeated, with theme and variation, all over the world too.

It is important to remember that so-called ->-bleeped-<-s, maybe  wearing too heavy make-up and too flashy clothes(to paraphrase a poster above)because (1) they lack experience with make-up (2) They are still very much in the extremely heady stages of being open about themselves.    When I went full-time within the family I certainly overdid the clothes and the make-up and the girlishness.     I did rather think that being a girl was all full make-up and dressing stylishly and fashionably everyday. *   I soon got past this stage.    The only female clothing items I wear each and every day now are bras and panties, and sometimes I don't wear any make-up at all.     

* Don't get me wrong, I like to look pretty and dressed and groomed like the next woman.  I just don't feel the need to do this all day, everyday.

This idea that "real women" dress in only a certain way is a little silly.

I dress in ways that appeal to me. And what appeals to me now is not what used to appeal to me when I was younger.

But, I'd agree that the 'idea that "real women" dress in only a certain way is a little silly.'

Needless to say, the really good (lucky/gifted/heavily invested)  transwomen & crossdressers you don't even notice at all do you?

Well I have seen every combination.

Most people in feminine presentation did not have a problem with female pronouns.

Some people that do not pass as a female have their feelings hurt by "Sir" or "Mr." vice versa for FTM.

Quote from: tekla on August 18, 2011, 05:11:47 PM
Needless to say, the really good (lucky/gifted/heavily invested)  transwomen & crossdressers you don't even notice at all do you?

it certainly makes it alot easier to function in society!

Quote from: Renate on August 18, 2011, 02:03:01 PM
Since a transwoman is a woman, asking her what pronouns she prefers or if she's a woman would be as offensive as asking any other woman.

This is so true.

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
The running joke at one function I went to about 25 years ago that had some of each in attendance was that the transsexuals were the ones in comfortable shoes and clothing...sure it may be a stereotype, but it was certainly accurate that evening. 

And even now, if I see someone come into a gay/lesbian bar in heels (much less skirt or dress), it is usually a safe bet they were neither natal nor were they transsexual...faded jeans, boots and a basic top (or some other comfortable clothing) with some signals that beg the question, pretty safe bet that they were transsexual

I have noticed this as well. Crossdressers (from where I am living) usually wear really short skirt, high gloss pantyhose, stilettos, and an obvious wig (something that costs about 20 bucks) with very heavy makeup.

I wear skirts a lot and sometimes short skirts but its just the way I present myself that usually makes the difference. I don't over do the make up.

Also, if you look at the mannerisms of crossdressers vs trans girls, the crossdressers have a mechanical or "overdoing" feminine body gestures. Trans girls are usually more natural (unless they are very new at it)

Quote from: Gravity's Child on August 18, 2011, 01:48:25 PM
What about femme or lipstick lesbians?

exactly. I am heterosexual but really heteroflexible so i do go to a lesbian bar from time to time. They refer to me as lipstick les and in my prior post above there is a major difference between a lipstick lesbian (or bisexual) and a cd walking into a les bar

Quote from: Ann Onymous on August 18, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
even in the bar, a lot of them are still jeans or slacks and flats...you just don't see skirts and dresses on the women in most of the bars I frequent, and this held true no matter where in the State I went...

i go to les bars in skirts all the time lol.

Been extremely successful when the bar closes too!  Butch girls here LOVES lipstick girls in skirts. So i think this is different for everyone

I would refer to them by how they're presenting. If they're presenting as female, then I'd use female pronouns until corrected.

You could trick that person into saying a sentence with a gender-influenced word. Harder than in French, but it has to be possible in English, too. A crossdresser, unless trying to "trick" people into thinking he is female, would normally not "she" himself, unless he has a character to play.

Other statistical hints (all of which are PROBABLY (55%? XD) individually true but could very well not be):

-Amount/flashiness of make-up is generally higher in crossdressers.
-Crossdressers should be less skilled in "girl stuff".
-Crossdressers wear more "too much" clothes like dresses and big earrings.
-Crossdressers are more likely to be using a wig, and more likely to use a cheap one.
-Crossdressers should normally show less shyness.
-No crossdresser should have had a tracheal shave.
-Crossdressers don't usually train their voice much.
-Since crossdressers' pleasure lies in clothes, they will most probably be very focused on this.
-Crossdressers will usually worry less or even not at all about passing.

May not help at all. Though I agree with Samantharz: The most important thing is to use female pronouns on a female-presenting per.son all the time, unless directed otherwise. Anyone purposedly dressing as female would naturally expect/hope to be treated as female

Now there is an interesting thing here... ever seen or heard of a AFAB cross-dresser?!
In the terms used for MtF, >90% of AFAB would be cross-dressing, yes?

Though it might bring about an issue with FtMs, as most every one and there uncle's first guess would be --- you being lesbian, butch, not lipstick though, obviously.

Now how do YOU deal with that, being FtM? Ignore it, correct them?

In fact dressing 'down' (jeans, tackies, t-shirt, pony tail, no makeup) may just make me be considered just that... butch-lesbian. I wouldn't give two straws as I'm BI, so long no one calls me a guy or dude, eh! More complications?

Best be, I guess, to have an introduction, even by oneself, stating your name.
It should side step the issue, won't it?

Axelle

It would be best to ask politely, since some crossdressers may look more "passable" than transsexual woman in early stage of transition. It is also true, that crossdressers tend to wear heavy makeup, flashy clothes, and have really flamboyant style

There's no polite way to ask someone if they're a crossdresser or transsexual.

If I dress female it is very conservative and professional.  I do not like way wigs feel on my head so that I do not wear them.  I can not walk in high heels so that I do not wear them.  I only like a little bit of make up and hate clown look.  I do like perfume (sorry).  I like tasteful jewelry.  Voice sounds better as a male than a female so that I keep my male voice(sorry again).  I wear female glasses.  I have a soft , hairless male face.  My body looks very female without a behind.  I do not pass.  I do not expect to be called Mame but I hate Sir( I cringe with, " Sir, Sir paper or plastic?").  You would pick me out in 100 people or maybe 500 people just by this description.  O.K. here's my story:

Went to Southern Comfort Conference and was exiting elevator and two six foot six girls in shinny 6 inch high heels, big hair, heavy makeup, 600 pound breasts(not really but very big),  etc. were behind me.  When elevator door opened I held door for them because I do that for anyone behind me.  Both ladies held their noses high in air and said "UGG" with obvious distaste and head turned away from me.  I am not sure if I was not supposed to hold door for them or I did not pass their standards of female presentation.  A thank you would have been nice.  I thought them rude.  They were pretty enough.