Pica took the words right out of my mouthe first post. But I would like to add a little. The death of Christ fulfils the law. People that use it to point our sins out don't realize that it is the same as stonig a person. Beating them and so on. It also is how they crucify Christ afresh. If he fulfilled the law, why then are they preaching the law? It took years to realize that that they were crucifing him again in spirit. But he can not die again because "death has no dominion over him." So what did happn? They stoned and crucified us with the law and through that we learned not to jugde others. It was his enemies that crucified him. They do labor unto his death. "Ye shall know them by their fruit" "fruit unto death." We have to let go of everything that we have been told by them.

They put Leviticus in the Bible for added Levity.

In regards to Christianity, I believe that Jesus had fulfilled the Old Testament laws and prophets' commandments, not by his death on the cross, but by empowering ourselves during anytime of the cosmos. Love God and Love your neighbor is something that does not require a death of a Messiah to fulfill but is an action we can all follow regardless if he died for our sins or died because of the current political and religious upheaval.

I say this because I don't believe Jesus died specifically for our sins nor do I believe in original sin (many Pastors and theological teachers don't believe this as well and a really good book was published on "The Dishonest Church" which talks about the Pastors not preaching on what they really believe but what the church wants to hear) . I just don't believe in all powerful creator of the universe needing a blood sacrifice to forgive someone on their misdeeds or a blemish because if we are commanded by the son of God to forgive someone 77 times 7 (which is an expression of always forgiving) then I would expect the most intelligent and wise Creator of the universe to do the same. It woulod be like us saying "I will forgive you but you must kill something in order for me to forgive."

Also, since I do not take the Bible literally, I do not believe in a Adam and Eve and, therefor, I do not believe a woman ate a forbidden fruit causing the catalyst of inherited transferal sin from parent to child.

you should poke fun at the bible......it was written by a bunch of old men! lol

There were actually some books in the New Testament that were written by women in their late 20s. The book of Hebrews is one of them.

About 9 of the 23 Gospels written around 60 to 90 AD were also written by women too.

Quote from: jainie marlena on August 18, 2011, 12:48:51 AM
Pica took the words right out of my mouthe first post. But I would like to add a little. The death of Christ fulfils the law. People that use it to point our sins out don't realize that it is the same as stonig a person. Beating them and so on. It also is how they crucify Christ afresh. If he fulfilled the law, why then are they preaching the law? It took years to realize that that they were crucifing him again in spirit. But he can not die again because "death has no dominion over him." So what did happn? They stoned and crucified us with the law and through that we learned not to jugde others. It was his enemies that crucified him. They do labor unto his death. "Ye shall know them by their fruit" "fruit unto death." We have to let go of everything that we have been told by them.

what law are you referring to?

She means the holiness codes, levitical laws, and commandments of the Prophets from Adonai.

Jesus two commandments sums up all those laws

in other words, moral and mythical laws? 

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 10:04:03 AM
in other words, moral and mythical laws?

actually more like ethical, ethnical, practical and moral laws.

The laws were not mythical as they were quite real and tangibly adhered to.

Annah your right, it not about forgiving us of our sins. That is something that they say. No one could see past the relgion. Sometimes we need things to past the time until we can better understand. That has always been my question. Does god love us as himself? Does he see me as his neigber? It not to forgive of our sins but take away the thing that they acuse everone of.
What did he really save me from? Them. Their version of god makes no sense to me because he does not keep his own word. The one I see took ownership of what was going on and set out to make it right. They beat us with their words and even made me fill hated by god. He took away the things they said to me then I could see he never jugde me for who I am because he does not jugde. The book of John writes about him not judging.
Jesus said that the father judges no man then says he judges no man and tells us not tojudge anyone. But he said to the teacher of his time, "ye judge after the flesh."
The very law that they judge with will judge them becausethey are living by it after he said not to anymore.

absolutely

Also if God commands us to "forgive everyone" then we would presuppose that this same Creator would do the same thing. Conservative Christianity states "But God does forgive everyone as long as you 'accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior.'" Well, that's not forgiveness. That's conditional forgiveness. It would be the same for saying "I will forgive you that you killed my son in a car accident as long as I can see you locked up for the rest of your life."

Jesus talks of unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness but people love to misinterpreted the Bible. It is one of the most misinterpreted Holy Books ever created. The Quran is the second most misinterpreted book followed by the Hebrew Bible.

For me, I am just plain in the middle with everything. I follow a pagan lifestyle. Im the second witch to ever go to a Christian Seminary; however, I see truths in every religion and I do believe Jesus was real and an avatar of God. Also, I have a deep fascination for Christianity and being a Priest in the past def fueled that!

Annah, thank you for your very well explained response to my earlier post.  While I don't agree with a policy that never allows change, I do know that there is a strong fear component that many have towards change, though that fear is mostly unfounded.

It has been said one of the best things the U.S. founding fathers did was create a constitution that allows for change.  People change, societies change so the rules we live by should too.  I do believe if ancient people had adopted that kind of thing long ago when writing what would become religious texts, the concept of change would be universally accepted today.  There's something about "ancient" we tend to attach great value to but how to live and getting advice for how to handle a given situation in the present day shouldn't be included.

Most people today have enough sense to know assembling a crucifixion mob is frowned upon, as is public stoning and things like that.  The torture and killings that were carried out centuries ago began with passing judgment on others, often based on religious beliefs.  And while we, as a society, are not as barbaric as we were back then, we still feel we have a right and at times almost a duty, to pass judgment on others and punish them in whatever way is legally permissible, or illegally if you think you can get away with it.

That's what should be changed and I fail to see any logical reason why each and every religious faction wouldn't want to implement those kinds of changes.  Every belief system I am aware of has, at its core, a basic rule we should treat each other well.  It's all the other stuff that is heaped upon that that causes people to believe there are exceptions to that rule.  Simplifying and clarifying ancient writings in a way the everyday person today can easily understand, and done in such a way as to convey that basic rule, would go far in making this a better world.

So rather than deleting or editing the ancient texts, they could be archived.  Anyone referring to them when justifying their actions, particularly when it hurts someone else, would be responded to in such as way as to explain some of the "rules" that applied back then no longer apply in today's society.

Julie

I completely agree with you.

The problem is you got "Teachers of the Word" who, quite frankly, don't know what the hell they are talking about.  Holiness Books should be reflected upon as a divine sense of guidance and never as a modern rule book for today's society.

This is why conservative Christianity (and other religions that takes their books literally) is so dangerous.

Hey Annah,
Your post number 30
The truegod is the god of ALL grace.
god was in Christ reconsiling the world unto himself not imputing their traspasses unto them."
I don't have the verse on hand but beliving in Jesus is OT law.

Quote from: tekla on August 16, 2011, 06:53:49 PM
You had to hear that?  You've never picked up different versions and checked it out? 

This would be a pretty useless endeavor for a lay reader who wants to determine the accuracy of the translation, don't you think? And, heck, even the "experts" don't agree; I've read and heard some interesting contradictions and disagreements among biblical scholars regarding a number of books in the Bible, including Leviticus.

With that said, no, I'm not particularly well read in Leviticus because I don't see the point. I've only read two or three complete versions of this book, plus various translations of specific passages from it (verses that relate to gay issues, mostly). That was enough for me. I'm neither a believer nor a biblical scholar, and I don't find much value in trying to use biblical scholarship to argue against Leviticus-quoting homophobes. They believe what they believe, and logic doesn't really enter into it.

Quote from: jainie marlena on August 18, 2011, 06:27:06 PM
Hey Annah,
Your post number 30
The truegod is the god of ALL grace.
god was in Christ reconsiling the world unto himself not imputing their traspasses unto them."
I don't have the verse on hand but beliving in Jesus is OT law.

Yes, Matthew 22:40: "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets." (referring to love your God and love your neighbor as yourself).

I noticed you mentioned the True God. Here is an interesting note: In Ancient Hebrew text with the book of Genesis and in Exodus as well as Judges, Samuel and the first half of Kings, Adonai (Yawh-h) referred to Himself as the God of Gods and in the original language it was very much related that there were many Gods and Goddesses but in the Pantheon of the Samarian, Egyptian, and Assyrian dieties, Yawh-h was considered to be the head and most powerful. It was not until later in the book of Prophets that the theology changed to there is only one God and all others were worshiping a false God.

Thinking of a name change to Venus or Aphrodite! 

Quote from: Arch on August 18, 2011, 09:13:58 PM
This would be a pretty useless endeavor for a lay reader who wants to determine the accuracy of the translation, don't you think? And, heck, even the "experts" don't agree; I've read and heard some interesting contradictions and disagreements among biblical scholars regarding a number of books in the Bible, including Leviticus.

With that said, no, I'm not particularly well read in Leviticus because I don't see the point. I've only read two or three complete versions of this book, plus various translations of specific passages from it (verses that relate to gay issues, mostly). That was enough for me. I'm neither a believer nor a biblical scholar, and I don't find much value in trying to use biblical scholarship to argue against Leviticus-quoting homophobes. They believe what they believe, and logic doesn't really enter into it.

You would be surprised how quickly a Christian homophobe will settle himself or herself down when you start to historically, culturally, and theologically pick apart their Levitical clobbering versus like a vulture to deer meat.

For many Activists, knowing the Levitical laws intimately has opened doorways to churches and denominations to allow same sex marriage, ordinations of LGBT, etc. 50 years ago there was no church that ordained LGBT. With the correct teachings of Leviticus, you now have five major denominations and seven more on the way allowing the ordination of LGBT people.

True, some people will never change, but the changes so far have been nothing short of miraculous

Quote from: Annah on August 18, 2011, 09:48:25 PM
You would be surprised how quickly a Christian homophobe will settle himself or herself down when you start to historically, culturally, and theologically pick apart their Levitical clobbering versus like a vulture to deer meat.

Yes, I would be surprised. So far I haven't had much luck myself, but I'm no activist and have only challenged people on a few occasions. But I have to admit that I don't have any real historical or cultural knowledge about the period, just general knowledge about passages regarding burnt offerings and food and weeping sores and womanly "uncleanness." Nothing that impressed anyone. I will leave that work to people who have real command of the subject matter.

Annah, you're really going to have to start your own church.  You're so "now"