I have many many thoughts on this subject.  While the explanation of free will may be valid to some, to me it's nothing more than an excuse as to why there is no "devine" intervention is such cases (hungry children or abuse).

We all know that there is the belief of the human soul entering heaven or hell after biological death.  Here is another thought provoking question: what about animals? do they enter heaven or hell after death?  While it can be argued as to the validity of animals having a soul, they most certainly do have intelligence and while it may not be agreed upon, are more similar (genetically) than may be realized.  Animals, believe it or not, do make choices as well.  For instance, my 5 year old Siberian Husky is highly intelligent, responds in a social manner with my son and I and, believe it or not, chooses whether or not to ->-bleeped-<- in the middle of my carpet! lol 
Every argument I've heard from my FB friends, family and other friends is that animals do not have a soul therefore do not go to heaven or hell.  I always ask "what constitutes the def of "soul."" 
I do not believe in the concept of a god as is put forth by mainstream religion as being the creator of the universe.  For all we know there may be parallel universes.  I do believe Karl Marx when he authored the communist manifesto and his beliefs of religion and god.   It certainly makes perfect sense to me when someone has a hard, lousy, poor life and dreaming of something better in the "afterlife".....certainly makes sense to me.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 07:18:09 AM
I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused?  I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.

God is love
love is God

we were made in the likeness of God/love

so what do WE DO about the situations around the world?

God is in us if we have love

God is not separate from us unless we do not have love in us

If we do not have love in us we won't adopt a child thru one of the many agencies (if we can afford it)

Lets show our love and likeness of God within us by helping when we can

I have been blessed to have found two who needed help that i could afford

One has outgrown their program while the other one is my sons age of 13

The one who outgrew the program is also the same age as my older son who is now 20

Jesus/Yahshua tried to show us how we can build up our spiritual bank account

as we can't take our riches with us when we pass over

religions teach that God is separate from us but i do not believe that.

God is love and we try to make a resting place in our hearts for that love/god

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 07:18:09 AM
I'm curious, if there really is a god, why does he/she permit so many young children to starve to death and be abused?  I'd like good strong sound answers and not excuses please.

Because a Creator wold not have a type of mentality to control people like puppets. We are free to make our own decisions whether they are good one or bad ones. When someone blames God for every "f**k" up in the world, that is the same as saying "The devil made me do it."


If a God controlled everything we thought or acted upon then we would not be humans. Merely caged animals with an eternal master that pushes a water and food bowl to us twice a day.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 18, 2011, 12:27:18 PM
so free will is why so many children go hungry and starve? why so many women and children are abused? why there is so much hate in this world?

In a simpler theological answer: yes.

If you do not believe in a God, no amount of explanation will make sense to you because you have already come to your own conclusion that there is no answer. As a former Priest, I seen people do these things all the time. You can explain it until the cows come home and it makes sense to everyone else in the room, but if someone has the mind set to prove to them that God exists, then the apologetical discussion is over before it started. Because you start the question without having an important component to the answer. And that is faith.

A wise Priest or Priestess would tell you to have faith first and then ask the difficult questions. Because without faith as an element to the discussion, there is no point to even discuss it because the question isn't really a question; more like a statement of why you don't believe in a God the way some others do.

Thomas Jefferson once said (Paraphrased) It is foolish for man to blame a diety for the bad things in life but disregard the blessings that he has bestowed upon this world no matter how small or great.

so, despite thousands of children dying everyday from starvation, faith will feed them despite the international community's best efforts to feed them?  Faith will stop the warlords in Somalia from stealing the food? Faith will stop that child from being abused (many around the world right now)?
Having my undergrad degree in bio and doing my grad work in bio, I like to ask questions first and seek answers to those question before I formulate an opinion (or hypothesis) on anything.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 10:38:34 PM
so, despite thousands of children dying everyday from starvation, faith will feed them despite the international community's best efforts to feed them?  Faith will stop the warlords in Somalia from stealing the food? Faith will stop that child from being abused (many around the world right now)?
Having my undergrad degree in bio and doing my grad work in bio, I like to ask questions first and seek answers to those question before I formulate an opinion (or hypothesis) on anything.

You just proved my entire point from my last post.

Faith isn't found purely in scientific formulas and hypothesis if you don't have it to begin with. It is a blindfolded walk in a forest of doubt, hope, and belief. 

Once you have faith then you start seeing it in the world of science through the small things. But without faith you can ask this question and receive a thousand and one answers and none it will make sense to you.

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:58:37 PM
You just proved my entire point from my last post.

Faith isn't found purely in scientific formulas and hypothesis if you don't have it to begin with. It is a blindfolded walk in a forest of doubt, hope, and belief. 

Once you have faith then you start seeing it in the world of science through the small things. But without faith you can ask this question and receive a thousand and one answers and none it will make sense to you.

faith isnt going to feed those children, no matter how much you have.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 19, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
You're making an assumption...that God would want those children to stay alive.

ergo, it isn't worth discussing because she already had the answer before the question was even asked.

Quote from: Beth Andrea on August 19, 2011, 11:16:08 PM
You're making an assumption...that God would want those children to stay alive.

Ever consider that maybe God is indifferent to any particular outcome?

I think that if there was a god, he/she/it would more likely be in the form of Yoda! lol.......i think there's a pretty strong correlation between faith and "the force".......

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 11:27:02 PM
ergo, it isn't worth discussing because she already had the answer before the question was even asked.

if i knew the answer i certainly would not have asked it.  so far the comments i've seen seem more like excuses then anything.....obviously I have very little, if any, respect for theology and those who practice it because of all the excuses provided for this "all loving god"........everything good, and we've been blessed by this god and everything bad, well it isnt gods will. 
oh, i'm sorry I didnt feed my son this week because i have faith he wont go hungry.  i didnt help my son with his calculus homework because i have faith he'll do well on his next exam when he obviously needs help with derivatives.  sorry mr banker, i didnt pay my mortgage because i have faith somebody else will pay it for me.  i prayed and prayed that my mother wouldnt die on the operating table, but, it wasnt gods will that she survive and "he" (sexist) called her home..........hello, every biological species will eventually die

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:56:50 PM
if i knew the answer i certainly would not have asked it.  so far the comments i've seen seem more like excuses then anything.....obviously I have very little, if any, respect for theology and those who practice it because of all the excuses provided for this "all loving god"........everything good, and we've been blessed by this god and everything bad, well it isnt gods will. 
oh, i'm sorry I didnt feed my son this week because i have faith he wont go hungry.  i didnt help my son with his calculus homework because i have faith he'll do well on his next exam when he obviously needs help with derivatives.  sorry mr banker, i didnt pay my mortgage because i have faith somebody else will pay it for me.  i prayed and prayed that my mother wouldnt die on the operating table, but, it wasnt gods will that she survive and "he" (sexist) called her home..........hello, every biological species will eventually die

It sounds like you've taken a lot of words from this thread and twisted them to fit your preexisting biases.  If you can't respect theology because it sounds like excuses, why do think you'll get an answer from anyone who follows a theology that you won't dismiss as an excuse?  All you'll get is verification of your bias because you can easily take any argument from a believer and twist it.

Until you experience the numinous or are open to experiencing the numinous, you may never find the answer you seek here.

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 20, 2011, 12:27:34 AM
It sounds like you've taken a lot of words from this thread and twisted them to fit your preexisting biases.  If you can't respect theology because it sounds like excuses, why do think you'll get an answer from anyone who follows a theology that you won't dismiss as an excuse?  All you'll get is verification of your bias because you can easily take any argument from a believer and twist it.

Until you experience the numinous or are open to experiencing the numinous, you may never find the answer you seek here.

no, not really. "faith" and "free will", to me, are excuses and there's nothing really to twist about those excuses......and that is common in theology for where a good solid answer to a question is not answered.  If this god him/her/it self revealed him/her/it self to me, obviously my views would change.
do you realize that the presumption that this god is male is of the earliest form of sexism?  I remember hearing once, and I may be wrong, that 10% of ones earnings must be donated to the church?  why is that?  All these TV (television not ->-bleeped-<-) preachers always crying "send me money".......
per Poison's song off of the Flesh and Blood CD.........give me something to believe in

Quote from: Annah on August 19, 2011, 10:15:43 PM
Because a Creator wold not have a type of mentality to control people like puppets. We are free to make our own decisions whether they are good one or bad ones.

so all those young children who cannot take care of themselves just choose not to eat?  all those young children that cannot take care of themselves choose to be physically and sexually abused?  A while back, that woman in south carolina (I think) locked her kids in the car and drove it in the lake for them to drown......those 3 kids chose to be in that situation? where was the devine intervention in that case.....having been in the marine corps, i have been waterboarded and it aint fun having the sensation of drowning!

And, if there is an absolute creator, how would we know what type of mentality he/she/it would or does have?  really, i'm being serious.  Certainly no living creature has ever met him/her/it, correct?

Quote from: Zoë Natasha on August 18, 2011, 01:16:36 PM
So is God directing you to feed and care for your son?  If you stopped, would spiritual sustenance alone keep him alive and healthy?  And I supposed God directed my stepmom to starve me and beat me and torture me?

I'm going to come out right now and say that I'm not a Christian, but I harbor deep spiritual beliefs in a power larger than us.  I've experienced a great deal of abuse, but I've seen too many examples of humanity banding together for the common good to believe anything BUT that we come from a common source.  Does this common source control every minutiae of our lives?  I don't think so.  But I think we're set on a path, we have a destination, and that destination is enlightenment.  Enlightenment is simply moving closer to the source, closer to God.  How we get there and what happens to us in the meantime is the result of free will and our interactions with the wills of others.

The next time you laugh, have a genuine smile, feel your heart swell with joy, see something of exquisite beauty, stop and ask yourself: where did this come from?  Why did you feel it?  If you want to believe that it's all chance, that it's all a biochemical reaction, or that it's just a total crock, then that's your prerogative.  But I choose to believe that I'm experiencing firsthand a sliver of the numinous, the great unknown beauty.  Call it God if you wish.

Nobody can give you a reason to believe, it has to come from your heart.

And as for the question of the children, I still maintain that it's free will.  Are the people who abuse/starve them removed from God or the source?  No.  For whatever reason, it's where they've chosen (at least temporarily) to walk their path.  If they're mentally ill, it's probably not even a choice.  The act itself is appalling for those of us who see its cruelty, but the important thing is that the person learns from their mistakes and grows.  That's where compassionate, more-enlightened souls enter the picture.  And what of the unfortunate victim/s?  Is it fair?  Hell no!  Was it their spiritual destiny?  No, if you believe that destiny is enlightenment.  But that little soul continues, grows somewhere else, and gets another chance to flourish.

Christians might say that little soul enters heaven, which is much the same as what I believe, in that we always grow closer to God.  Even my ideas that the perpetrators of heinous acts may eventually find enlightenment (even if not in this life) have a Christian analog in salvation through belief in Christ.  Belief in Christ, I should add, is another exercise in free will.  You choose to or you don't.  The Bible is full of examples of those who did not.

so those children are a sacrificial offering?

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 12:51:22 AM
no, not really. "faith" and "free will", to me, are excuses and there's nothing really to twist about those excuses......and that is common in theology for where a good solid answer to a question is not answered.  If this god him/her/it self revealed him/her/it self to me, obviously my views would change.

So what you're saying is that you're looking for the numinous experience, which no human can give to you.  And for those who have experienced the numinous, there is no way to put that experience into words, for to explain the numinous immediately strips the experience of its numinosity.  For that is its very essence: by no means can it be fully described to another living being.  That's not to say it can't be discussed, but the breathtaking quality is impossible to impart to others.

And it also sounds to me like you have issues with churches.  Well, not every follower or leader has experienced the numinous firsthand, but follow teachings of people who DID experience the numinous and supplant that doctrine as their own genuine experience (which it certainly is not).  The numinous forever changes those it touches, and it's safe to say that anyone who uses spirituality or religion for the denigration or destruction of others has never had such an experience personally.  They twist words to fit their own selfish agenda, not only because they have free will, but because they've conflated their sense of spirituality with their earthly desires to the point that they use spirituality/religion to pursue not the greater good, but their own wants.  That said, there are infinitely more people who haven't had the numinous experience, yet still choose (again, free will) to live their lives according the most loving interpretation of their doctrine as possible.

I'm not saying that those who have experienced the divine are puppets without free will, but what they will into action or being is forever changed to more enlightened endeavors.


EDIT: it should also be worth noting that the numinous experience does NOT stand up to empirical testing or validation, because it's not something that can be turned on or off, nor can it be willingly replicated.  So if you can't believe what can't be seen.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
so those children are a sacrificial offering?

See, that's just not fair.  That's taking my words and turning them into the most outrageous argument possible.  I never once said that the divine required human sacrifice.

If you simply don't believe in free will, then I'm done with this argument.  You will never understand what I or anyone else has said here.

Quote
"Freud never asked himself why he was compelled to talk continually of sex, why this idea had taken such possession of him.  He remained unaware that his "monotony of interpretation" expressed a flight from himself, or from that other side of him which might perhaps be called mystical.  So long as he refused to acknowledge that side, he could never be reconciled with himself.  He was blind toward the paradox and ambiguity of the contents of the unconscious, and did not know that everything which arises out of the unconscious has a top and a bottom, an inside and an outside.  When we speak of the outside--and that is what Freud did--we are considering only half of the whole, with the result that a countereffect arises out of the unconscious.

There was nothing to be done about this one-sidedness of Freud's.  Perhaps some inner experience of his own might have opened his eyes; but then his intellect would have reduced any such experience to "mere sexuality" or "psychosexuality."  He remained the victim of the one aspect he could recognize, and for that reason I see him as a tragic figure; for he was a great man, and what is more, a man in the grip of his daimon."

-Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections"

One of the many flaws in these sorts of arguments is that there is no way to test the hypothesis.

If a person believes or has faith in a deity then that alone is enough to answer the question. The very nature of the deity is incapable of being understood, because by definition you cannot understand the 'mind' of a deity. Therefore you accept the outcome: starving children, or terminally ill children or every other horrible thing that happens by having Faith in the nature of the deity.

If you do not believe in 'gods' and I do not, (but I respect those who do), then the question is unanswerable. You cannot ask a question of a deity that you do not believe exists.

The question the OP posed is totally answered by evolution. The environment places pressure upon all and we evolve to deal with it over eons. If there  is insufficient food 'we' will die off until there is. Problem solved. If 'we' get infected by a new virus or whatever that is deadly we die off,  until those who are immune survive. History, even recent history is full of examples. 

But I think we need to be cautious. Faith in religion and gods are very important for many people, I do not mean that in any trivial way. People lives are sustained by belief, including my own belief in evolutionary pressure, and we, as thinking caring people, need to take that on board. Otherwise we are no more accepting than those who regard people with GID as perverts and sinners.

JMO

Cindy

If we believe in Love we believe in God because God is love god is not something separate. Either you have god/love in you or you don't. We are made in the likeness of god we are made in the likeness of love but some do choose to turn away from love/god

this thread feels like the standard "my belief system is right and yours is wrong" and it seems the question was posted merely to push that agenda.

When a group of people answer the question only for the OP to say "not good enough" then you just need to walk away from the question because when you keep on trying to explain yourself you become "entertainment" to that person.

The answers given are good here to the question but if the original poster already have it set in her mind what the answer is, then the question is no longer a question seeking an answer but more of a "this is what I believe and this is my proof why I believe it" Thus, any answers given here are pointless in regards to the person posing the question.

The interesting point is that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God no matter how hard you try to explain it to the opposite parties.