"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able, and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able, nor willing? Then why call him God?"

-Epicurus    (341 - 270 BCE)

Or, to put it in problem form:
If an all-powerful and perfectly good god exists, then evil does not.
There is evil in the world.
Therefore, an all-powerful and perfectly good god does not exist.

Or you could refine it, as has been done:
God exists.
God is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good.
A perfectly good being would want to prevent all evils.

An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence.
An omnipotent being, who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.

If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and perfectly good being, then no evil exists.
Evil exists, therefore...

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 20, 2011, 01:09:14 AM
so those children are a sacrificial offering?

Again, we are given free will. If you really read the answers without a bias, your own response would make sense to the answers given.

But again, this thread feels more and more like a "baited argument" than a real curious seeking out an answer.

I love but I do not believe in gods

Cindy

To be honest its way past time for it to be locked.

IMO
Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on August 20, 2011, 06:38:02 AM
I love but I do not believe in gods

Cindy

if you believe in love you believe in god because they are one and the same.. god to me is not an entity but just the act of love.. i don't follow religions i just follow love/god

I'm pretty awesome but I'm not a goddess

Hugs
Cindy

Quote from: Cindy James on August 20, 2011, 06:42:58 AM
I'm pretty awesome but I'm not a goddess

Hugs
Cindy

we were created in the likeness of Love/God but some do give it away for other things but you Cindy are a Goddess of love a love Godess

Quote from: Annah on August 20, 2011, 06:27:46 AM
this thread feels like the standard "my belief system is right and yours is wrong" and it seems the question was posted merely to push that agenda.

When a group of people answer the question only for the OP to say "not good enough" then you just need to walk away from the question because when you keep on trying to explain yourself you become "entertainment" to that person.

The answers given are good here to the question but if the original poster already have it set in her mind what the answer is, then the question is no longer a question seeking an answer but more of a "this is what I believe and this is my proof why I believe it" Thus, any answers given here are pointless in regards to the person posing the question.

The interesting point is that you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God no matter how hard you try to explain it to the opposite parties.

careful annah......those first few sentences are borderline attacking.  I asked a very valid question and has nothing to do with pushing an agenda.  I get sick to my stomach when I see images of very young children being malnourished and the thought of thousands upon thousands dying everyday because of that......same with abuse.
If your answer to my question is free will and faith, please elaborate specifically on why faith and free will permit young children to starve to death and be abused.  Despite the international community's best efforts, there still are thousands upon thousands of young children dying everyday from starvation.
As a loving parent, I would steal food if necessary to prevent my child from starvation..........that's my simple analogy.

I too was sick to see children dying so i joined www.worldvision.org and www.christianchildrensfund.org or else you can join many others if you search  http://www.charitynavigator.org/

As long as people are on this earth, they had gods for things they couldn't explain.
It's quite easy when you don't understand something to give the credits to a God and to say that we people are too insignificant to understand the will and power of that God.
Modern science has already destroyed a lot of that fables.
As long as it give people some comfort and they can believe in internal life after death, it's okay with me, but people fight eachother to death just for their religion, they think often they have all the wisdom because of reading the bible and are apparently the right persons to judge people who think differently.
That's one of the reasons that children in b.e. Somalia dying of starvation, there is a group of believers who will not let pass the people who want to help.
Believers in a God seems to know exactly what that God wants and they see themself as chosen people of that God.
No matter what religion we are talking about, such an arrogance.
Maybe God is only existing in the head of the believers because there is no proof of the existing of a God.
So, if a God is not existing, who will help this poor children.....nobody and the starvation will go on.

God is not a separate entity

god is love and love is god plain and simple

We were born with love/god in us = we were born in the image of god/love

Jesus / Yahshua on the other hand was a separate person who understood that God is love

the pharisee's distorted the truth that is why jesus spoke against their lies.

The pharisee's are like todays pastors or priest etc and actually push people away from the truth

People can't tell you about getting to god because we were born with god in is. remember we were born in the image of love/god however some try to distort that truth and say you have to do things to get to god but you don't because god is in us and has always been in us

I think that Jamie has asked an important question. Regardless of what you believe or where your faith lies, it's not really a difficult question to answer. The god (lower case intentional) of our world is money and power. Those who have it determine what happens. It is as simple as that.

So, while it is an interesting concept to contemplate the excuses God may have for not intervening, everyone has their own concepts of who and what God is. The philosophical reasons could well outnumber the people count of the world. But in reality, it is the money and the foul stench of corruption that tags along for the ride, that rules this world.

Funny how everyone ignored Epicurus then, and they still do.  Is there no answer?  Or just no answer that you like?

If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god.  If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god.  If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?

that's a very very interesting thought!!

Tekla, You're still here too?  My oh my how I've seen so many old acquaintances.

You think too logically to be accepted in our society! Go away!  No.... no.. come back. It's really nice to see you again in the virtual world.

Kia Ora,

I guess on a more cynical note.... "God knows why" these kind of things happen! And believers/theists become agnostic when it comes to questions like this...

And what is god without faith ?

Metta Zenda

If your god lets children and other innocent people suffer just you you can have a velvet-lined life lesson delivered to you as you park your ever expanding ass on a beach, then your god sucks.

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 05:48:55 PM
Funny how everyone ignored Epicurus then, and they still do.  Is there no answer?  Or just no answer that you like?

If god can not prevent evil, He/she is NOT god.  If they can, but choose not too, really, you want to follow that?

There are two major flaws in Epicurus' argument...it's why I never bothered answering it.

The first flaw is the issue that Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology.  Most Gods worshiped are not Omnipresent or Omnipotent nor do they have any desire to do so.

Even these attributes of the Judaic/Christian God developed these attributes through the writings of men in only selective passages.

Secondly to presume we know what a higher being thinks, feels, or commanded things into being is a very presumptuous and assanizing thing to even think of.  If there is a God or Goddess, we have no earthly idea what he or she or it is like because the closet thing we have to describe any form of a deity is through the writings of man.

In the school of theology, we have a saying for some things. "It is what it is."

To try to learn it deeper without any further knowledge to base it on is personal devotion and not discovery.

To put down other people for their religious beliefs or their lack of religious beliefs is also a very immature thing to do (this last comment wasn't directed at you. Just an observation i hold dear to any fundamentalist religious and fundamentalist atheist zealot).

Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology.

Interesting, as the Greeks of his time cared nothing for (and knew little about) the Jews, and Christ wasn't even born for a few hundred years after he wrote it - still....  Still, I'm sure getting both points of your answer absolutely 100% wrong is an "A" answer where you go to graduate school.  In all other undergraduate schools, it still gets an 'F'.

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 09:35:21 PM
Epicurus is trying to define a God centered around Judaic/Christian Theology.

Interesting, as the Greeks of his time cared nothing for (and knew little about) the Jews, and Christ wasn't even born for a few hundred years after he wrote it - still....  Still, I'm sure getting both points of your answer absolutely 100% wrong is an "A" answer where you go to graduate school.  In all other undergraduate schools, it still gets an 'F'.

Every single one of your posts today have been pretty messed up. I know you are in a bad mood about something so I wont entertain your personal attack against me.

But if you want a historical lesson in order me to better explain it to you I will (I assume you knew enough background information so I didn't think I had the need to spell it all out for you)

Jewish culture was heavily influenced in the Hellenistic era and likewise, the Greek people were influenced by the Hebrews to an extent. Much of Epicurus' philosophies against these types of Deity definitions were directed at the Hebrew people because if he were to use his philosophical statement in a Greek society of a religious Pantheon it would make no sense whatsoever since he used a Singular when referring to God. Furthermore, there were Malevolent gods in the Greek Pantheon so his statement would make even less sense when debating theological apologetic to a society that embraced both kind and malevolent gods, wise and foolish gods, etc etc.

Epicurus' statement was a sly comment against Judea, which at the time, was one of the only nations that prided itself on a Monotheistic theology. Also, Epicurus was infamous at pissing people off ...even his own leaders. To equate Epicurus' quote against a pantheon of gods would not make any sense. To compare it to the Hebrew god made all the sense in the world.  Also, in the Greek Pantheon, their gods were not all knowing and all powerful. They even made it a point to understand this. This is another reason why many nations did not like Israel/Judea as their belief structure in an all knowing and all powerful God seemed a bit "elitist and nose thumbing."

Furthermore, I never mentioned Jesus. I used Judiac/Christian as the God worship by these two religious faiths are the same God and the statement Epicurus had said was directed towards the Hebrew God, which in turn, would be the same argument against the Christian God. This is why I put it in there.

There. Someone answered your question. Take what I said here and then reread what I stated in my prior post. You can either agree or disagree. I could care less. But lower your attitude a few notches if you wish to have a conversation about this. You wanted the question answered. Don't belittle someone who answers your request. It's rather immature.