I feel this is pretty simple, refer to them according to how they present. I personally know a post op TS that some people might say looks more like a cross dresser. And I highly doubt ANY cross dresser would be offended if you used pronouns that fit how they appeared. I just can't see for example a MTF cross dresser out in public demanding to be called sir or being insulted for being called her. "Look, I'm really a man" is NOT something they would say. And IMHO it's insulting to even ask given for all you know they are a post op on years of HRT that just doesn't pass well. If someone really is ambiguous, it's not that hard to just avoid gender pronouns all together in casual conversation.

I'm actually shocked this is even a question here...

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:02:36 PM
but there is also the chance that a ->-bleeped-<- would do it in a stall next to a young girl and that is where the concern comes in and rightfully so.

Then the default of your argument is that it would make it ok if it were an adult female the next stall?  I'm pretty sure no one male, female, adult or child wants to be in the next stall when that's going on.  Does it happen?  Yes.  That's why there are laws against it.  Again, statistically, its more likely that your son would be exposed that then your daughter, but if you want to keep throwing around dangerous stereotypes, so be it.

Quote from: Jamie Nicole on August 19, 2011, 11:20:00 PM
again, your coming to your own conclusion.......I provided that as an example and a what if scenerio

Well following your same logic, lesbians shouldn't be allowed into the women's bathroom either..

You might try the honest and enquiring route. 

IE: I have know a few people that are Transgender and was wondering if you are?

You would get a simple reply with out hurting someones feelings that way

Quote from: -Ryan- on August 19, 2011, 11:47:41 PM
guys i just wanted to know if it would generally be ok to refer to someone who is presenting as a female with female pronouns whether or not they identified as a female, or if i was making an enormous faux pas.

You won't go wrong refering to someone how they present. It would be a very rare case that say someone presents as a woman would be upset being called she and vice versa.

This other nonsense about a TV/CD is somehow likely to use every trip to the restroom for personal gratification is a pathetic excuse to deny transpeople the right to not be humiliated when they need to take a leak. And given what most HRT does to trans women makes this even worse. Maybe this person posting this was stealth about her transition and lived as a man until they had grs, but that isn't how most people do it.  And if I recall, you are required to do a year "real life test", so requiring someone to live as a woman but be forced to use the men's bathroom is demanding they humiliate themselves on a daily basis.

I could see something like this being argued from outside this community by a right wing nutcase but I am shocked once again watching a post-op TS BEATING UP people following in their footsteps. I mean does GRS make these people forget what they had to suffer through? It appears so.

Kia Ora,

Only if you know the person personally can you tell for sure ! Sadly the fact is some trans-women have no dress sense, especially those just starting out...

Metta Zenda

Let me sum up the argument so far very briefly.  It is this: ->-bleeped-<-s are men who don't think of themselves as being female and wear women's clothes for sexual gratification and as such they should be excluded from female bathrooms because the general public is unable to a great extent to discern the difference between a ->-bleeped-<- and a transsexual/transgender person.   Perhaps a way around the toilet thing is that ->-bleeped-<-s only go out fully dressed to gay and transsexual bars/pubs etc where there are no children to see them.    Genetic women in gay and transsexual bars really have a cheek if they complain about 'men in the women's restroom'.   Doing this is akin to going to a gay bar and loudly and vociferously complaining to the other patrons and management: ' Oh my God there are men dancing with each other', or 'there are two women kissing in the corner, quick get the manager to call the police.'
  I think that some of the comments by a certain person in this thread amount to very little more than trans snobbery.  It reminds me of the the old British class observation.  Upper class man: I look down on him because he is middle-class.   Middle-Class Man: I look up at him because he is upper class.  But I look down on him(Working-class man) because he is working class.   Human beings have a powerful and abiding desire to feel superior to others, in the trans case it of course shows itself as 'I am a bona-fide transwoman, YOU are just a man in a skirt.'   It makes these people feel all smug and secure.     You cannot legislate against human nature, if the law allowed us full access to genetic women's spaces then certain people would just move on from the 'no-genetic males' in the ladies' toilet argument to something else.   The only long-term solution is to be so secure in your sense of identity that nothing can upset you.   This comes with determination and practice and a good and non Polly-Annish understanding of people and their motivations.

Quote from: Princess of Hearts on August 20, 2011, 05:19:24 PMHuman beings have a powerful and abiding desire to feel superior to others, in the trans case it of course shows itself as 'I am a bona-fide transwoman, YOU are just a man in a skirt.' 

do ->-bleeped-<-s identify as female?  do they have a dx of gender identity disorder or gender dysphoria?  maybe I was wrong, but what exactly is the definition of "->-bleeped-<-?"

Valerie you have just dismissed and 'demoted' transgender women to being little more than ->-bleeped-<-s, and a further implication of your last sentence is that we transgender women are in some ways worse than ->-bleeped-<-s as we are both deluding ourselves that we unlike ->-bleeped-<-s are women.    Surgery and hormones won't make you a woman they will only give you the outer appearance of one.   It is the mind that determines a person's gender.   A male can be a woman despite all appearances to the contrary.

We human beings are tormentented by our sense of self and our awareness of the concept: Time.   I often yearn for the simplicity and natural dignity of the animals.  No cat ever wonders if it is male or female.  No squirrel agonises over whether it likes male squirrel or female ones or does it like both.    No bird sitting on a fencepost, or flying like an eagle over moorland far below torture itself with questions like ' Why didn't my father love me as much as my mother?   Am I fundamentally unlovable?'    ' What is going to happen to me next week, next month, heavens next year!!'    We humans exhaust ourselves because we cannot be like the animals but neither can we be like the gods.    This seems like a recipe to despair and suicide, but there is a way out and that is to be always present in the 'Now'.   Do not let your mind wander into the future or dwell upon the past.  You only torment yourself because the past is over and you can do absolutely nothing to change what happened.  Forgiveness is the key to unlocking past traumas.   Dreading or anticipating the future pulls you away from the 'Now' and in the case of dread it torments you with what the Taoists call 'the ten-thousand things''.  Anyone who has lain awake all night before starting a new job, or having to do something 'unpleasant' will know the terrible contortions the mind gets itself into.   When feeling dread,anxiety, regret start watching the mind like an observer.  Don't try to hold on to nice thoughts and push away unpleasant ones, just observe dispassionately and soon you will realise 'oh there I am thinking that thought, those thoughts again'.   Doing this has two benefits it calms the troubled mind and it takes all the energy out of troublesome thoughts.   If you cannot take time out to watch your thoughts e.g. you are at work, then another technique is to immerse yourself in what you are doing regardless of how boring or petty it might be.  In the words of Shunryu Suzuki 'Do not be a smoky fire'.    You should read any book by Joko Beck as she is very good at explaining these ideas to Western readers and Americans especially.

Kia Ora ,

In a nutshell....... 

If one does not want to be rude or offensive then it would pay just to use the pronoun that suit the style of clothing the person is wearing...If it's female attire then she, her etc if it's male then he him etc...

They will soon let you know if it make them feel uncomfortable and what their preference is...

Never judge a book by it's cover ! But if it looks like a book well..........

Metta Zenda

If people want to think of you all as the most selfish, least hospitable people on earth, then I'm giving them this thread, because that will show 'em won't it?

Quote from: tekla on August 20, 2011, 06:54:12 PM
If people want to think of you all as the most selfish, least hospitable people on earth, then I'm giving them this thread, because that will show 'em won't it?

Kia Ora Tek,

Having a hard day ? Remember "Nothing is permanent" not even your mood...

Metta Zenda

There are legal provisions for people using a restroom, or any other public room for that matter, that engage in perverse lewd and/or lascivious behavior.  If anybody, regardless of their gender identity or what clothes they happen to be wearing, engages in such behavior, there is recourse.  If somebody is just being creepy in a restroom, again leaving out gender stuff, without actually crossing any legal lines then you have every right to get away from them.

Feeding into people's irrationality when it comes to who is in a restroom with them, and where trans-whatever people belong has become the conventional method for people/politicians with bad intentions for us as a group to shoehorn a debate for limiting our rights into their various platforms, and I think we should not be feeding into it.  Use the bathroom you feel most comfortable in, then when you are done, leave.  This isn't something to freak out about.  If somebody is being weird in a bathroom, then they should be dealt with accordingly, regardless of their gender whatever.

My answer to the original question is if somebody is presenting as female, they are "she" until they tell me otherwise.

Quote from: Valeriedances on August 20, 2011, 08:47:44 PM
If Jerry Springer puts on a skirt as a joke during a show he is still a male to me and i wont dignify the situation by calling him a she if i happen to be on the show. This is what i mean by perception. We all have this right. If this is true, then why would we call a tv a she (other than to avoid a confrontation).

The difference is we all know who Jerry Springer is. If he puts on a skirt during the show, we know  he is still a male because we know him.

When you meet someone outside, the truth is you don't know if that person is a CD or a TS.  Ive seen just as many TS wear gawdy jewelry, heavy makeup, and provocative clothing as I have seen CDs. (This past Philly Pride parade they had an entire float of TS girls topless except for tassels taped to their nipples. To assume you know someone is a CD or a TS is just that. Assuming.

You could be walking into a situation and call some girl a "sir" thinking "eh, he's a CD" and this person could actually be a TS and you will end up falling into the same trap that we fight against society when delivering pronouns.

There's nothing against calling a Cd a she if you aren't sure. Your pride isn't at stake. Hers is if you get it wrong.

if a guy throws on a skirt to be funny or cute then that's one thing.

if a Crossdresser puts on a skirt and goes out and wishes to be called a she or if I see someone wearing a nametag that says "Im a CD" Im still going to use the pronoun she.

For me, it's not a big issue to casually use the word "she."

The issue I would have is if the crossdresser does not identify as a trans or has no desire to transition and wants "F" on her legal paperwork because of the issue of going back and forth in gender presentation would be a logistical legal nightmare.

The ts girls were focused obsessing on the things i mentioned (transition takes over a ts' life), while the cd's wont be.

The majority of the metal health professions agrees that not obsessing is better than obsessing.

You all are you're own worst enemies, but then again, your metal health professorial has told you that before haven't they?

Omg 121 replies...LOL *Bump* 

You know there is a crossdresser board here at Susan's.  Why doesn't someone ask them to post their opinions in this thread.   

I saw all sorts of people 'identify' as things.  Mostly as things they weren't. 

I honestly think the line between crossdressers and transsexuals is fuzzier than most people think.  I'm not saying they are the same, just that the line between them doesn't have a hard edge.