What is passability while wearing women clothes. To me this means blending in with all of the other women around you.  We worry about being tall, short, skinny, large, big feet, big hands(me included).  I have seen a lot of women who are tall, skinny, short, large, big feet.  So what does passability really mean to us.

I've sort or 'studied' women when ever I'd get the chance (at work, walking in a mall, on TV). My 'research' has led me to the theory that it's not the obvious signs that would make a MtF CD stand out as a man.

Granted, the deep voice, protruding adam's apple, lack of 'plumpness' in the face and appendages (due to the thinner fat layer), or strong brow ridge could very well peg you. But, being 'feminine' is more than that. To be passable, I think that that you have to nail the feminine movements. To me, this means:
* When walking, keep your back vertical (or 'plumb', as carpenters say it); also, keep your shoulders back (i.e. in line with your back). Keeping your elbows close to your body, perhaps 1 or both forearms out a bit (maybe swinging), also helps.
* When sitting, you don't have to cross your legs (I think that males' hips are built differently from females - I can't do it convincingly). Keep your upper legs together, and cross the lower part, slanting to one side.
* When talking to someone (especially another woman), gesture with your hands - iow, let your hands show your emotion. You don't have to bend it at a right angle all the time - just a bit of a kink could be enough. Also, touch is a good technique; touch your upper chest, upper leg, or shoulder. If the 2 of you feel 'endeared', you could touch her arm.
* You could also let other body parts show your emotion. Turn your head or tilt it a bit. Rotate your shoulders a bit (keeping your torso in the same position). If standing, position 1 leg differently, or bend your leg at the knee (just a quick flirty gesture). Bump out a hip and rest your hand on it, showing your pretty nails.
* Minor behaviors: play with your hair, file your nails, primp your clothes (e.g. for a shirt worn outside your slacks/skirt, make sure that the back is straight and flat), pull a mirror out of your purse and check your makeup & hair.

I think that getting the mannerisms into your behavior will keep you from suffering 'dude-in-a-skirt' syndrome. That's because feminine mannerisms are more important than being 5'8", with small hands and feet.

^^ This ^^

I guess when others assume you are a gender female. I was in a Walmart buying steel toed mens work boots once and the cashier called me ma'am. I assume I passed.

Quote from: Genevieve Swann on August 27, 2011, 08:59:34 PM
I guess when others assume you are a gender female. I was in a Walmart buying steel toed mens work boots once and the cashier called me ma'am. I assume I passed.

Or, maybe the cashier figured that, because you're presenting yourself as a woman, you want to be referred to as a woman. Iow, s/he respected your desire to be considered a particular gender.

I think that I'd take that as readily as hoping that I pass.

Passing would be nice although I don't feel that it affects my desire to crossdress.  When I'm dressed I feel
and act feminine.  I do agree that feminine mannerisms is a huge part of passing.  I always am observing girls and their walk, talk, and jestures.  Hopefully it can become automatic without thinking someday.

Samantha

If it helps at all, being born a biological woman doesn't necessarily get you these characteristics either.  I grew up modeling only men because I didn't have female influences  in my household most of my life and the "feminine" way to do things also seem to elude me.  I have seen crossdressers who pull off being a woman better than I do!  In fact I swear when I went out with my bf dressed as a woman, I am sure some people thought we both were "dressed" up.
To answer the question posed, in my opinion "passable" means that when people see you out in public, they think you are a woman or at least they pause and are not sure.  I have seen a lot of women who look like men (and they are not trying to) so there is a wide berth of possibilities.

With regard to the people addressing you as a woman even if they are sure you are not, I think that if someone dresses like a woman and is obviously not trying to bring attention to the fact they are just dressed up, that anyone with a lick of sense would address them as they appear.  My bf is not really passable but it makes his day when someone suspends that reality and calls him a lady.

There may indeed be masculine appearing women out there on the planet, however, studies do prove by exact percentage which specific features are the most common on a male face, most common on a female face, and how each of these particular features mix and match up and what rate. There truly is a scale between the most masculine face on earth, and the most female. While conservative and religious individuals may want to believe that each type of face occurs just as often as another, the occurrence of these faces is of the highest percentage directly in the middle; around %50 of human beings on earth have an exactly androgynous face, while as little as %5 have "the most masculine/female face on earth." (With the majority of those 5% having endocrine disorders.)

So in my opinion, passing is more of a term for "fitting in with the majority to ease social stress" and it is an absolute lie that just as many natal women have masculine faces as female faces. This is not at all true, especially in age groups younger than 30. It doesn't matter if one is a female, male, MTF, or FTM, our society views a masculine face as masculine, and a female face as female. If a woman looks like a man, she's usually called "ugly", rather than gender adjectives. Almost any man can look like "some woman out there". Many less can look like a pretty, attractive woman who can truly succeed in socializing in the middle of a dating, career, or media lifestyle. I don't believe passing is 100% about passing as male or female, but by some standards about fitting in with the most common female adjective out there; beauty.

Let's face it, if a MTF who looks like Fred Flinstone tries to form a group of girlfriends, tries to date at a straight bar, tries to become a news anchor or media host, tries to become a model, tries to become a school teacher, tries to do any of the major activities that make up a normal woman's life, they probably will not succeed; it's the same way with natal women who look just as masculine. That's why natal women often also partake in plastic surgery and hormone regulation; both society and science agrees that no woman should look like a man. There's plenty of endocrine disorders that classify natal women who look like men. Why would a true MTF (not a crossdresser) be happy looking like a woman who has Acromegaly or other likewise endocrine disorders?

Rhino, these studies you speak of are not studies. These are your own opinions

Unless you place links to your sources to prove these as factual or that you got it from somewhere else they remain to be your opinions that you made up.

One example is this:

QuoteWhile conservative and religious individuals may want to believe that each type of face occurs just as often as another,

Where in the world did you come up with this? It is so untrue that it's mind boggling. It's almost as if you make up things and pretend them to be factual.

Quote from: RhinoP on September 28, 2011, 12:04:45 AM
There may indeed be masculine appearing women out there on the planet, however, studies do prove by exact percentage which specific features are the most common on a male face, most common on a female face, and how each of these particular features mix and match up and what rate. There truly is a scale between the most masculine face on earth, and the most female.

Cutting out the rest, this one actually is true. This artist builds prototype faces based on amalgamations of a few hundred faces in order to work out the probability of any given feature being on a male or female face:

http://www.virtualffs.co.uk/My_Facial_Feminisation_Thesis_Part_8_How_Feminine_is_Feminine_Enough.html

However, the artist's main point is that a lot of people have faces that fall in the mid-range where it is quite possible by altering your gender expression to tip the balance in your favour. While it is true that extremely masculine women are unlikely - women with gender neutral or somewhat masculine faces do exist. While the extreme - having every single feminine feature - is very unusual. Despite the name of the site, she is actually very conservative in her suggestions for surgery.

On the other hand while it is true that there are women with big feet or big hands or broad shoulders or no ass or small chests or prominent chins or brow ridges or adam's apples or sharp jaws or big noses - it is unlikely for one woman to have all of the above. It is more of a tipping point - more feminine features (whether built in or crafted with clothing/makeup/etc.) and people will see you as female, more masculine features and people will see you as male. Not all features are equally weighted, but neither are any individually going to inevitably gender you male in another's eyes. Except voice.

That's all my opinion of course. Based on some evidence, but still opinion.