In an effort to enable me to open back up communication and to learn more about our shared experiences, I plan to create a few new threads regularly with simple, direct, questions.  Feel free to answer as succinctly as you wish so as not to hinder communication (basically I don't want anyone feeling they have to write a book - I'd rather just hear from you even if it just a few short sentences).

Did you seek/find idealizations of your target sex?

I certainly did.  I was often drawn to media as a child that showed females in a light that I felt was ideal who had traits similar to mine.  Strangely I rarely found myself capable of finding examples of those traits among men although surely they exist.  This idealization as a child had a large part to do with why I felt even more out of place as a male - society didn't value my traits in males, but they were exemplified in females.  As a male I was worthless, as a female, I would have value.

I'll take "target sex" to mean "own sex". I wouldn't say idealizations so much. Even as a child I knew that nothing was ever ideal. I did (and still do to some extent I suppose) seek out either real women or female characters that seemed to be similar to me, the way I really am, not the situations I may find myself stuck in.

This happened to me just this month, in a way. I was on a singing camp and got a godawful crush on a girl over 20 years younger than me who's a singing and yoga teacher, and who has been into east European folk song since her teens (and who is absolutely beautiful). It took me a few days to put my finger on why the huge crush, and then I realised: she's just who I would like to have been at her age, round about the first time I knew I wanted to transition.

I've spent decades falling for women I actually just wanted to be. And that feels qualitatively very different (now that I am open to the difference) from simply falling for women because they're lovely and attractive . Definitely an idealisation and a yearning that is easy to bring back into myself now that I acknowledge its source.

Quote from: interalia on August 30, 2011, 12:15:15 AM
Did you seek/find idealizations of your target sex?

"Idealizations?" You mean like Madam Curie or Lady Ada?

Not until I reached my teens. I did more trying to be a girl than looking up to them, I believe.


Edit: I actually spent most of my youth fighting the inner girl. Which probably sounds odd, but hey.

If I am understanding what you are asking, then yes.
I looked up to, tried to imitate, and fantasized about being Elvis, Clint Eastwood and a few other guys.

In contrast, I never have related to females in this way.

Quote from: interalia on August 30, 2011, 12:15:15 AM
As a male I was worthless, as a female, I would have value.

Those thoughts are counter to anything in a patriarchal society.

Maybe I got what you are indicating.

I was about age 5 and the girl next door I STILL RECALL HER NAME!! Marion, was my idol. I wanted to be like her, wanted to BE her.
Also, I NEVER even was able, or allowed, to exchange a single word with her. But I TOTALLY idolized her. She was sophisticated, pretty, rich, just had STYLE. Hey, at age 5 not bad :-)

To be her, be like her, was to be in heaven. And so many years later I still recall that. It must have been the first sign of my issues (GID). I NEVER had any male model I was remotely interested in --- until Mikhail Baryshnikov (the ballet dancer and later actor) but oh so MANY years later.

Axelle

I'm having trouble understanding the question too, I think maybe because I just didn't share that experience so I'm like, "huh?"  If I understand it correctly, I would say no that wasn't something I ever noticed myself doing.

Nowadays, I look at some women as role models for sure.  I see how they are and think, "that's a good way to be."  I see that as being a pretty normal thing to do.

Before I came out, started transition, etc. I would see plenty of women I felt I had things in common with, but I didn't really ever give it too much notice.  Like you, I was fully aware I would fit into society better as a woman.  I would look at men in media and society at large to see how I was supposed to act, because acting like a man didn't come naturally.  I was terrified of growing up and having to be a man because I didn't think I could ever learn to be like that.  I feel I'm talking more about gender than gender identity with those examples, but maybe that's what this question is about.  I don't feel gender roles affected my gender identity, but I think my gender identity made me feel uncomfortable in the wrong role.

I dunno I'm just throwing a lot of things out there in case any of them answer your question.

I always looked up to my brother's best childhood friend. He was always very badass in the sense that he swore about twice in every sentence, drank, smoked, did drugs, pierced and inked every part of his body, died his hair, listened to rap and metal. Dropped out of high school, got kicked out of home. He was troubled to say the least and is now straightening his life up and I still look up to him. He's a drag queen now and is a damn good performer. His best friend is an MtF transsexual. He's one of my biggest supporters through my own transition. I guess every since I was 3 and he was 6, I've looked up to him. I wanted to be him. In reality, I am not him and never will be and I'm fine with that. There are traits I've probably modeled after him, like his vision of the world and (unfortunately) his swearing habit.

Haha, it's getting me to not write a book for you that's the trouble...

But yeah, I definitely have done this for as long as I remember, and still do. It's pretty much always been fictional characters: the characters that I really ... I don't know, emotionally attach to, or idolize, or whatever, have almost always been male. I definitely remember considering this at various points before I knew I was trans and wondering why I really never liked female characters as much, even if they had traits that I logically should connect to or admire. I've always wanted to be the guy characters in all my favorite stories.

Quote from: EmmaM on August 30, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Not until I reached my teens. I did more trying to be a girl than looking up to them, I believe.


Edit: I actually spent most of my youth fighting the inner girl. Which probably sounds odd, but hey.

Not odd at all, actually.  This sounds like my own childhood as well. I didn't realize what was going on at the time because I was very sheltered and wasn't really exposed to ideas like crossdressing or transsexualism, but it's all quite clear to me in retrospect now that I know better. As I was growing up, it seems like I was constantly doing things that I hated because I thought they were expected of me as a boy. I absolutely DESPISED phys ed, but tried to act like I loved it. (Memories of the locker room still haunt me sometimes. *shudder*) I learned how to work on cars, do carpentry, and even started lifting weights for a while. When I got older, I started dating girls that, as I figured out later, I wanted to be LIKE more than I wanted to be WITH.

Basically, I spent my whole childhood trying to be a boy...and hated it. Looking back, I was far more depressed most of the time than I realized. I guess that tends to happen when you try to be something you are not. At least I now know there are other possibilities.