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If We Were Immortal, Would Religion Exist?

Started by Julie Marie, August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM

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Anatta

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 12:58:54 AM
I still think Immortals would want to have sex. 

If you ever saw "My Stepmother Is An Alien" with Kim Bassinger, there's a scene where her "immortals" are up in the clouds speaking to her and one sneezes.  Then he remarks about how interesting that experience was.  I'd think Immortals would seek out all sorts of experiences or we'd get very bored.

On a tangent to this, the immortal concept would allow for first person answers to a whole lot more than religion.  How were the Pyramids of Egypt built?  Why are the pyramids of the Aztecs so similar? Where did Modern Man come from and did they mate with the Neanderthals?  And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Kia Ora Julia,

::) Perhaps there would be no need for "thought"...Plus boredom is what only mortals feel... ;) :D ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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Anatta

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 12:58:54 AM


On a tangent to this, the immortal concept would allow for first person answers to a whole lot more than religion.  How were the Pyramids of Egypt built?  Why are the pyramids of the Aztecs so similar? Where did Modern Man come from and did they mate with the Neanderthals?  And a whole bunch of other stuff.

Kia Ora Julia,

::) As an immortal   "I am the past...I am the present...I am the future... I am "now" and "now" has always been...There never "was" only "is" !"...

::) If that makes sense  :D ;)

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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cynthialee

the question posited immortality for humanity, not the animals...so yes we would have the concept of death.
So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
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Julie Marie

Further definition: In this Immortal World, one is born into this world we know as Earth, just as humans are today.  The only difference being we never die.  But for population explosion reasons, let's say we have the option to move - to another planet, another dimension, whatever.  But we can still come back here and we can still easily communicate with others on Earth.  Internet of the Cosmos?  Sure.  Why not.

Information then would be gained more first person than through word of mouth or ancient writings, something we have no way of verifying factually now.

In the realm of religion and faith, any and all questions we may have about the holy books - "Did Moses really part the Red Sea?"  "Was the Qur'an really revealed to the Prophet, Muhammed, or did something else really happen?"  "Did God really give the Ten Commandments and the Torah to Israel, or was there some stretching of the truth there?"  "Excuse me, Jesus, with all you said, did you really never write a thing?" can be answered first person.  Then it's up to us to decide how much we want to believe.  At least we wouldn't have to hear (like I did), "Don't question your faith."

In this respect, in the being able to ask eye witnesses what actually happened that fateful day, we could better answer the questions that have been asked for many a millenia.

Not being able to get scientific proof to the answers I sought, and simply being told, "Just have faith", is why I began to lose faith in the Catholic teachings.  And that was long before the priest crisis.  My mind could not accept someone telling me what to believe without some proof.  It's like a politician telling me the bill he is presenting that will reduce taxes for the rich will result in job creation.  "My dear voter, you just need to have faith in me."  You'll never hear me say, "Oh.  Okay," as I walk away contentedly.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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Stephe

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 02, 2011, 09:28:23 AM
Not being able to get scientific proof to the answers I sought, and simply being told, "Just have faith", is why I began to lose faith in the Catholic teachings.  And that was long before the priest crisis.  My mind could not accept someone telling me what to believe without some proof.  It's like a politician telling me the bill he is presenting that will reduce taxes for the rich will result in job creation.  "My dear voter, you just need to have faith in me."  You'll never hear me say, "Oh.  Okay," as I walk away contentedly.

Is there scientific proof Love exists? Since there isn't, I guess it isn't real either....

100 years ago science didn't know many of the things that are now seen as basic knowledge. Did that mean they didn't exist 100 years ago because there wasn't scientific proof of it back then?

My faith is strong because I don't take religious writing literally, I look for the overall message. "Did Moses really part the Red Sea?" is a question that wouldn't change my faith/beliefs if it actually happened or not. I actually believe the old testament is the example of how NOT to worship God. Of what is NOT important. If all that stuff was right, God would have had no reason to send Jesus here. His message was "Look you guys, LOVE EACH OTHER" was all he was trying to tell us.

And it seems many people think religion is mainly to deal with -afterlife- issues. As I said in my last post, I think that is missing the whole point God is trying to make us understand. I have no concern about things I have zero control over and no way I could ever find an answer to, like what happens when I die. What I do care about is what my life is like while I'm alive and THAT is why I am a religious person. It wouldn't change my beliefs nor would I consider myself a God if death wasn't part of my existence.
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Anatta

Quote from: Julie Marie on August 30, 2011, 01:19:19 PM
If our physical self was immortal, would we ever have had the need to create religion?  To take that one step further, if we were invincible, would we need religion or faith at all?

So much of what I've heard from the "faithful" speaks of life everlasting.  The promise is always there.  I've often wondered if that belief wasn't there - if when this life on earth ended, that was the end of their life, physically and spiritually - would their faith be as important to them?


Kia Ora,

::) The insistence by some, that immortals "must" have a concept of death because other animals die, got me thinking...

::) Because of the infinite possibilities that would relate to being "immortal", it's also "possible" immortals would just view death in other animals as "The long sleep"  [ dreamtime extended indefinitely so to speak] ...

During which time to add some "meaning" to what possibly could be a somewhat mundane immortal life, [just for the "sake" of it so to speak], they might[another possibility] also start to attribute unexplained wholesome and unwholesome experiences in their lives to things these "creatures of the dreamtime" had made happen...[Not too different to what some of us mere mortals have a habit of doing]

And their fascination with this unexplained natural phenomena of death in animals could also lead some "bored" immortals to deem them "sacred" creatures of the dreamtime [The beginning of a "religious" following of a sort ] ...

By this time, because of the animal's ability to both live and die-[entering dreamtime permanently so to speak] and the immortal's  lack of ability to explain the unexplained[wholesome and unwholesome experiences] they might[yet another possibility] be inclined to revere the animal both in its life and death...Hence the practice of "worshiping" begins to evolve...

::) This I should add is about the evolution of "religion" not necessarily the creator-god centred kind....

::) As usual I could be wrong, but.... It would take a bloody immortal to prove this theory [of the "unnatural" world of immortality and how religion "might" have evolved], wrong... ;) :D ;D

Metta Zenda :)
"The most essential method which includes all other methods is beholding the mind. The mind is the root from which all things grow. If you can understand the mind, everything else is included !"   :icon_yes:
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cindianna_jones

Quote from: Julie Marie on September 01, 2011, 04:03:08 PM
If we were immortal, we could just go ask Jesus himself what he meant by this or that.  We wouldn't need priests, ministers or any other religious official to interpret what someone wrote about Jesus a couple thousand years ago.

If we were immortal, we could ask the eye witnesses of ancient disasters exactly what happened and if maybe the explanation written at the time might be a little off, considering all that we've learned about things like locusts, meteorites, tsunamis and such.  Maybe they wouldn't be saying it was God's wrath.

If we were immortal, Ask Adam & Eve, "Exactly what did happen way back and was there really a talking snake?"


Ahah! Caught in your own trap, Julie.  Some might assume that these mystical figures actually existed. We grew up with them in our bedtime stories. But these characters are only real in the oral traditions. In the case of the Old Testament, these oral traditions grew for centuries before they were ever written down. In the story of Jesus, it was 50 to 60 years.  Can you imagine... actually, you don't have to imagine... look at what has happened to our modern day story of a crashed nuclear weapons test detector balloon in Roswell, NM, just 60 years ago.  And we are supposed to be advanced? We aren't that far removed from the Roswell story that we can't make sense of it, yet believers in aliens is at an all time high.

So, what we are really dealing with here are a number of questions. Would mysticism still exist? Sure. Would people still have faith in a supreme being? Yes.  Would the crazies be out to seize control of our society? Yes. We must remember that until very recently in human history, religion was the means to control and govern a people. That's why King Josiah had the "books of Moses" written in the first place, from the archeological evidence.  King Hezikiah came along later and had them rewritten to suit his purposes in governance.

Imortality, by itself, does not garantee enlightenment.  Jeez, this topic is so close to the novel I'm writing, it's scary. Education is our best hope for enlightenment.  We must recognize that faith and religion can be two separate and distinct things. Faith is personal belief. Religion is a governance tool.

Cindi
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Stephe

Quote from: Cindi Jones on September 02, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
We must recognize that faith and religion can be two separate and distinct things. Faith is personal belief. Religion is a governance tool.

Cindi

I really like this.. And to expand on this, faith can be simply how I see myself as a human being and how I should live/treat others. It doesn't have to include believing in Jonah and the whale or the burning bush etc etc.. Nor does it have to include some afterlife story...
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Julie Marie

Quote from: Cindi Jones on September 02, 2011, 06:19:32 PM
Ahah! Caught in your own trap, Julie.  Some might assume that these mystical figures actually existed. We grew up with them in our bedtime stories. But these characters are only real in the oral traditions. In the case of the Old Testament, these oral traditions grew for centuries before they were ever written down. In the story of Jesus, it was 50 to 60 years.  Can you imagine... actually, you don't have to imagine... look at what has happened to our modern day story of a crashed nuclear weapons test detector balloon in Roswell, NM, just 60 years ago.

And Ahah! back at ya Cindi...  The man who found the remnants of whatever it was said the samples the government showed the public were not what he found.  So while the government is saying they walked on water, the eye witness says "no you didn't".

But your pointing out the fact people tend to create history when it's been stored in the mind is exactly why the whole "You need to have faith" thing never worked for me.  That, and the fact they could never answer my reply, "Why?" to my satisfaction.  Just like the government was never able to answer why the eye witnesses at the Roswell incident had different stories than what the government version stated as fact.

Quote from: Stephe on September 02, 2011, 03:09:58 PM
Is there scientific proof Love exists? Since there isn't, I guess it isn't real either....

100 years ago science didn't know many of the things that are now seen as basic knowledge. Did that mean they didn't exist 100 years ago because there wasn't scientific proof of it back then?

But we're not talking about 100 years ago.  We're talking about now and all the science that comes with it.

As far as love existing, whatever one chooses to call it, I do know there's an emotional attachment humans form with certain other humans they don't form with all.  It has been recorded to such a point that proof it exists was established a very long time ago.
When you judge others, you do not define them, you define yourself.
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