I realize the TS crowd has their own frustrations with finding love and acceptance among friends and lovers who know their past, however, as an androgyne I think we have a very different bag of worms where that's concerned. Society seems very geared towards a binary and most TS when fully transitioned pass for that spectrum of binary they identify as. When you have a null or double set like most of us andros do it becomes a complex thing most people don't get and struggle to relate to you because of. When I get to the point where I can tell my friends I'm not a girl nor a boy I am usually met w/ the crushing comment "But you're very femminine, you think like a girl, I've always seen you as a girl." This makes me feel like people miss my personality because they see my body and that image is superimposed over it. Usually, after I try explaining what an androgyne is, people assume I'm confused or have some fetishized obcession with being different and giving myself different labels. In a dating relationship it gets even more complex because people are used to filling and needing certain roles, so when I can neither be the boyfriend nor the girlfriend it inevitably degrades the romance for my partner and the love is lost. People don't seem to know how to treat and and don't want to be with us after they find out we can't fill a certain role. I was having a conversation a while back with a friend who is another andro. My friend was expressing frustration with a girl that a relationship almost developed with. This girl wanted my friend to be her boyfriend and didn't really appreciate the natural femminine side my friend manifests frequently. It inevitably ended the romance. I started this topic because I thought it would be a good place to share our experiences and and frustrations with a society that doesn't understand what we are or really have any concept of it. Have you ever been forced in a gender role in a relationship, a friendship? How does it make you feel? I feel extremely uncomfortable being treated like a male or a female at any given time and as such it offers a level of discomfort in most of my friendships since most people see and relate to me as female and when I tell them I'm not they either try treating me like a male being uncertain how to relate or continue treating me like a female unable to shake the image they have of me because of my physical body.

It's like being a distant mirror, people will always see in you what they want to see.  Sometimes it's male and other times its female - people are so silly really.

I really wish I knew how to broaden people's understanding to include us.

It's kinda like being the creamy center in an Oreo Cookie, it's there, but you can't always see it, its' kinda under the surface, and even when you do see it, its' in a hard to reach place that kinda cramped.  But, no matter, it is there.  It's not all people, and it's never going to be all people - which is fine by me - it's like the creamy part of the cookie, less than 1/3.  But it is the best part.  There are a lot of people who really like the andro/bender, people not living up to all these stereotypes, free thinkers, theater people, heck it ranges from hippies to cos-play people, the entire .ALT cultural deal.  At any rate its there, you just have to work to find it.

I find andros are more fetishized in the alt and theatre crowds. It's something that's seen as "cool" or "subversive". I didn't make myself this way by some enlightenment, I was just born with a lack of an inclination to either side. I'm not special, just different. I don't like being seen as special. I like being seen as me.

I find andros are more fetishized in the alt and theatre crowds.

Yeah, but to them everything is fetishistic.  It's just who they are.  In the first group that's their reason for existing, in the second well it's always been about dressing up in costumes and playing different roles.  Either way, it's always been ok in those communities to be open about it.  And most of those people have far more than just one fetish, bet on it.

I think you missed my point here. It's not about being open, it's about how people treat you. I would rather someone vehemently oppose me and tell me I'm wrong than be viewed as some novelty. I'm not looking for people to be nice or friendly, most people are. I'm looking to be understood and treated as neither a boy nor a girl, but as I am. Being a fetish is not among these things. I have no qualms about fetishes, but I'm not a fetish, I'm a human without a recognized gender. I'm looking for recognition not adoration.

I now have Stone Roses, 'I wanna be adored' in my head...could be worse I suppose.

I agree with dustbunny, though I spose the word is objectification rather than fetishism. I don't want to be seen as an object, that grand and genderless thing in the corner. However, I can see Tekla's point, that these Alt circles objectify everything and themselves - I spose the ultimate in postmodern everything's a commodity-ness.

I am fine with relationships - as in friends and colleagues and people I love and who love me, but the whole boy/girl/andro-friend, them indoors type of adult, close relationship I have never had. Or I have, with two people, but with both those people it was never said - it was never official, it just was. (Plus the sexual side didn't happen, and that is a big chunk of it).

With both these people, I feel that the element of roles wouldn't be a problem, we had established roles in our relationship anyway (though this roles were not as boyfriend/me and girlfriend/me respectively), indeed I feel the girl is an unrecognising andro.

  I dunno, there's something in me that makes me rein back, maybe I'm selfish as to my own company. It's a subject I can;t think straight about, or even look straight at - like a bright light, I always look askance. So it leave me without. Maybe even an andro needs to grow  pair sometimes.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 03, 2011, 06:53:26 PM
I now have Stone Roses, 'I wanna be adored' in my head...could be worse I suppose.

I agree with dustbunny, though I spose the word is objectification rather than fetishism. I don't want to be seen as an object, that grand and genderless thing in the corner. However, I can see Tekla's point, that these Alt circles objectify everything and themselves - I spose the ultimate in postmodern everything's a commodity-ness.

I am fine with relationships - as in friends and colleagues and people I love and who love me, but the whole boy/girl/andro-friend, them indoors type of adult, close relationship I have never had. Or I have, with two people, but with both those people it was never said - it was never official, it just was. (Plus the sexual side didn't happen, and that is a big chunk of it).

With both these people, I feel that the element of roles wouldn't be a problem, we had established roles in our relationship anyway (though this roles were not as boyfriend/me and girlfriend/me respectively), indeed I feel the girl is an unrecognising andro.

  I dunno, there's something in me that makes me rein back, maybe I'm selfish as to my own company. It's a subject I can;t think straight about, or even look straight at - like a bright light, I always look askance. So it leave me without. Maybe even an andro needs to grow  pair sometimes.

I've had sexual relationships, and I really don't have any issue with my anatomy on that part. I'm not really hung up on my body or appearance, it's more the role of a woman or a man emotionally that I can't play. I know many andros feel a frustration with their bodies which I completely understand, but that's not really a frustration I have so much at this point. I can't envision a body I would be comfortable in so it's not something I devote thought to, but of course it does raise an issue when my body is undoubtedly female and that's what people see and that's how people treat me. I always imagined people were capable of looking past that and realizing what looks female but doesn't wholly act female is something else, but to date I only have one close friend who understands my frustration. It's a very isolated feeling because nearly everyone either knows me as a girl or some annoying misconceived notion about what and who I am.  As a person you really want people to know you. You need that essential validation. Confucius recognized this saying something to the effect of one cannot be a person by onesself. To quote Maciocia on this matter "..we are, from our inchoate beings, irreducibly social. Fingarette has stated the matter concisely: 'For Confucius, unless there are at least 2 human beings, there can be no human being'."

Hi, ya it sucks when you are treated in a way that you can't relate to. This is my opinion and lots of people might disagree with it BUT I don't think people can possibly under any circumbstance understand what you are meaning if they themselves aren't andro.   To them you look like a girl so therefore you are a girl, that makes sense to them but we know its not like that. My advise is to not expect a whole lot from friends or family and that might be really lame in a lot of peoples eyes but holy ->-bleeped-<-, even andros have a hard time understanding it. I'm not really sure if Confucius was religious like Buddha was but you can't live by what other people think and ya he's like the supreme wise one but I bet he wasn't andro LOL so his whole philosophy might be worth ->-bleeped-<- when it comes to us. Not knocking the guy but really, what does he know about YOU, maybe we can be a person by ourselves like we don't need anyone to validate us like the rest of society does. Like I said, its just my opinion :-)

Oh my,
I just got back from meeting and staying with an AFAB friend that may well be Andro. Not that she goes on about it - but sure acts like it.

Let me explain.
She dresses ~butch, has a femme figure that she always tries to hide, like show no hips, show no waist, show no breasts.
She had early in life some older cis-male relationship, some older lesbian relationship, and a number of younger ~ same age lesbian relationships.
She can't hold on to her relationships, and loves to cock-tease males AND mostly lesbian females.
Also tells me how much she loves me - not sexually though, and generally states to be asexual. Likes to get high on booze and coke and then makes some show-off as if she had a cock in her pants, worn down by her hips as is the fashion with some younger 'cool dudes'.

Now, let me ASK you --- with all the broadmindedness in the world what you gonna do, or how do you deal with such a situation. Female assigned at birth, dude when stoned, asexual when in working mode, and major cock-tease when in play mode.

As for me I just played along, no expectations what ever and just go with the flow.
Once the sexual side starts to get into the picture --- there again she likes sex, a lot, yet also claims to be asexual--- things get pretty hay wire and she (does not like to be addressed as 'he', never mind 'IT') can not hold onto ANY relationship for any kind of time.
And finally is in need of therapy after each break up --- clinically depressed since the first day she can remember, by her own words.

That's looking at 'Andro' from a t-girl perspective (me). One tough number to figure out for sure, or?

So, maybe you need to give the rest of the world, that don't quite get you, a bit of a break – now and again?

Axelle

Why are you in the Androgyn Talk section asking for a break, 'cause you can't figure it out? I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that Binaries just refuse to even imagine it could be other wise. Give me a break from the 'it's not my fault cause I can't understand crowd'.

Ativan

Hey hon,
I'm talking about the real world out there, you about Susan's blog?

The break I'm referring to is NOT related to the digital chat, but the REAL thing, the one I actually related and in no way invented.

I'm not doing what-ifs to put it simply.
The OP stated a real world issue also, at least that's what I got from it. If not, it'd just be idle talk and a waste of time. In that case you welcome and continue the game.

Food for though?
Axelle

You still haven't figured it out. You need a break.

Ativan

Ativan, I think you are going over the top with your reaction.

Quote from: Axélle on September 04, 2011, 02:20:28 PM
That's looking at 'Andro' from a t-girl perspective (me). One tough number to figure out for sure, or?

That's looking at a possible andro.

Though I can imagine I would seem awkward to other people.

Oh, and I do think we give the world a break, many breaks.

I do not insist on 'proper pronouns' or the 'correct bathroom', I have not changed my name or my gender marker - I have not strained any therapy or endocrine type clinics in the sorting out of myself.

I have learnt to accept that people see me as a man and become comfortable with the fact that greater time together will reveal the proper ins and outs of it - as it does with every human being.

I have calmly (ish) read diatribe after diatribe about how people like me are holding back the movements of the MTF.

I have also calmly explained again, and again what I think androgyne is and how it effects life and such.

I have dealt with the world as strait forward and honestly as I ever possibly could without demanding it to bend over backwards for me.

- But I do rely, and expect that a tiny, teensy, overlooked, under appreciated little corner of an internet forum might, maybe just might be the place I can talk about being an androgyne and occasionally complain about the complications this ensues without being harped at or discounted or ignored or regarded as something lower and lesser.

And I consider that  a reasonable little expectation.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 05:55:41 PM
Ativan, I think you are going over the top with your reaction.

Indeed.

And perhaps I am too.

Quote from: Pica Pica on September 04, 2011, 06:23:37 PM
I have calmly (ish) read diatribe after diatribe about how people like me are holding back the movements of the MTF.

I think it's people like you, people who can elegantly articulate a position, who could do nothing but educate and help all of society progress.  MTF's included.

Quote from: Axélle on September 04, 2011, 02:20:28 PM
Oh my,
I just got back from meeting and staying with an AFAB friend that may well be Andro. Not that she goes on about it - but sure acts like it.

Let me explain.
She dresses ~butch, has a femme figure that she always tries to hide, like show no hips, show no waist, show no breasts.
She had early in life some older cis-male relationship, some older lesbian relationship, and a number of younger ~ same age lesbian relationships.
She can't hold on to her relationships, and loves to cock-tease males AND mostly lesbian females.
Also tells me how much she loves me - not sexually though, and generally states to be asexual. Likes to get high on booze and coke and then makes some show-off as if she had a cock in her pants, worn down by her hips as is the fashion with some younger 'cool dudes'.

Now, let me ASK you --- with all the broadmindedness in the world what you gonna do, or how do you deal with such a situation. Female assigned at birth, dude when stoned, asexual when in working mode, and major cock-tease when in play mode.

As for me I just played along, no expectations what ever and just go with the flow.
Once the sexual side starts to get into the picture --- there again she likes sex, a lot, yet also claims to be asexual--- things get pretty hay wire and she (does not like to be addressed as 'he', never mind 'IT') can not hold onto ANY relationship for any kind of time.
And finally is in need of therapy after each break up --- clinically depressed since the first day she can remember, by her own words.

That's looking at 'Andro' from a t-girl perspective (me). One tough number to figure out for sure, or?

So, maybe you need to give the rest of the world, that don't quite get you, a bit of a break – now and again?

Axelle

I'm not certain what your friend is, or what you've determined by my post, but I do not behave like your friend, and neither do any androgynes I know. Your friend is the way she is because of who she is and her own personal issues that do not necessarily have anything to do with her being or not being an andrgyne, which, she has neither confirmed nor denied. I find it a little insulting that you would imply that her behavior is related to androgynes as if we all behave this way and further insist that I need to give the world a break as if I act like her. I'm always patient with my friends, my family and anyone who knows but doesn't get it, please don't assume that I take my frustrations out on the people in my life. The only place I speak of this is on this forum because I don't think anyone else would really understand. I'm certain you feel frustration in the same vein when people regard and treat you as male despite your transition. If you posted about that frustration in the trans forum I'd never head over there and make a condescending post on how you should lighten up because cis people can't get you. Please don't be a bigot. We're here because our lives are different and thus difficult. This is supposed to be a support group, be a little supportive.