or you will not be saved.

I've heard these words from born again family members and friends alike.  I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.  It just doesn't wash.

So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?  That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.

That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.  That really seems lame. 

Bear with me if I offended your ego.  It wasn't intended.

I believe God loves us unconditionally.  I believe we were put here for a specific reason and we were given certain burdens to carry to help us find our purpose here.  I believe in life after death and I believe I will be judged by how I lived my life here.

But I have a problem with this whole believing Christ is the son of God threat.  I don't think God is so narrow minded or egotistical that She would say that.  That's not the God I know.

Julie

I think faith in god is enough. I also do not believe in hell. I think there are many paths to god and jesus is simply one of them. Take the good, discard the bad, and live your life. Don't worry about the rest

Your born again friends and family members are completely devoid of any real understanding of what the purpose of life (to be happy, to love, to further the interests of humanity) actually is.  They are not at your level of thinking yet.  Believe it.

It does not matter to me whether or not Christ was the son of God.  Every human being is a son or daughter of God, directly.  The question becomes, then, who or what is God?  I once said that if God does exist, it is at the center of the universe.  Given the way space-time is curved, there is no real center to the universe: every single point in the universe is the center at any given time.  Knowing this, it's my belief that mankind, with its incredible imagination and drive, is God, in a sense.

Collectively, we are a force that has the power to bend the universe to our will.  Anything is possible because of our imagination, and we grow more advanced every day.

You're right. It doesn't make sense that you would go to Hell if you're a good person.  I don't believe God cares about religious semantics, though.  Some say scientists (which I am to a degree) are egotistical because they place so much esteem in man's abilities.  I believe the religious are egotistical because they actually think they have the capacity to interpret the will of God, which takes on many forms, but remains fundamentally the same.

God, as it were, is the heartbeat of any living human being. God is love, God is understanding, God is forgiving, God is caring for your fellow humans.  Your religious friends and family are the ones doomed to a Hell constructed by their own narrow-minded, primitive thinking until they can break free of their egos and realize the true purpose of life.

God is all things that bring humanity closer to enlightenment and peace.  Believe it.

~ Blair

Please.

Psychologically this is a defense mechanism known as projection. THESE Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned - the only terms in which Christians can make sense of information.

Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing. So, they limit the reasoning chain into a heuristic - an emotional shortcut. Jesus or not Jesus. It doesn't have the benifit of having any information, but it does have emotion - which is psychologically more persuasive.

I just ignore such nonsense, especially when it's coming from such a nakedly myopic mind.

Bri

Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned

Brianna, while I will defend your right to express your beliefs, I do take offense at being lumped in with the bigots who hide behind a cloak of religion to justify their narrow minded attitudes!!!!!!!!

Bev

Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Please.

Psychologically this is a defense mechanism known as projection. Christians can only understand the world through their myopic worldview. They project their own fears and insecurities onto others. Transsexuals don't fit into their lens, therefore they are damned - the only terms in which Christians can make sense of information.

Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing. So, they limit the reasoning chain into a heuristic - an emotional shortcut. Jesus or not Jesus. It doesn't have the benifit of having any information, but it does have emotion - which is psychologically more persuasive.

I just ignore such nonsense, especially when it's coming from such a nakedly myopic mind.

Bri

A Christian idiot is just as obnoxious as any other idiot.

An enlightened Christian is just as reassuring as any other enlightened person.  I agree completely with what you've just said, but just remember, while the vast, vast majority of Christians are complete morons, there is a growing minority that actually understand the teachings of Christ (those are the good ones.)

~ Blair

Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing.

I don't get it

Kate

Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 04:43:34 PM

Quote from: Brianna on March 03, 2007, 04:10:58 PM
Psychologically people don't like information they can't understand. It makes them feel stupid, which is mentally distressing.

I don't get it

Kate

omg ur dum if u dont lol

~ Blair

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?  That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.

That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.  That really seems lame. 

Julie, I so agree with you here.  If you have never done so, read Robert Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land.  An interesting treatise on religion disguised as science fiction and in it he suggests that there could be different sections of Heaven for different beliefs.  Personally, I believe a good person is a good person no matter what their beliefs or lack thereof.

Bev

Quote from: Blair on March 03, 2007, 04:52:59 PM
omg ur dum if u dont lol

~ Blair

Speaking of uninformed Christians, here's their posterchild.

I know that man and the fish can coexist peacefully - GWB
I know what I believe, and I believe what I believe, I believe, is right - GWB
Our enemies are tough and resourceful, and so are we. They spend all of their time thinking of ways to harm us, and so do we - GWB

Bri

I... Don't think George W. Bush is a good example for just about anyone. Not for a rancher, not for a president, not for a U.S. citizen, and not for a Christian...

The wave is to the ocean as the person is to _____.
God? Nature? You pick.. maybe they are not that different.
We are all part of everything that ever was and will be. We drink water that was part of Christ. We breath air that was breathed by Caesar. The sandwich we ate was once part of a dinosaur. When we die, we will be recycled. We are made of stardust. New suns will be made of us.
Maybe consciousness continues, maybe not. I don't know. I'm not even sure that it's important. We are. We will be, in different aspects of others.
Blessings, Tara

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
or you will not be saved.

I've heard these words from born again family members and friends alike.  I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.  It just doesn't wash.

So if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?  That's pretty much what I've been told by those who recite that to me.

That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.  That really seems lame. 

Bear with me if I offended your ego.  It wasn't intended.

I believe God loves us unconditionally.  I believe we were put here for a specific reason and we were given certain burdens to carry to help us find our purpose here.  I believe in life after death and I believe I will be judged by how I lived my life here.

But I have a problem with this whole believing Christ is the son of God threat.  I don't think God is so narrow minded or egotistical that She would say that.  That's not the God I know.

Julie

Well, well, well... how could I resist this one? 

So many "Christians" have said that. "You must believe..." and then they'll finish the sentence with some sort of dogmatic line that has been parroted down through the ages as if it's from God himself. You can fill that blank with any number of things:

... that God is a Trinity.
... that the Trinity is a false doctrine.
... that there's a rapture.
... that there isn't a rapture.
... that Jesus Christ is the son of God.
... that Jesus Christ is God.
... that God is masculine.
... that God is feminine.
... that Jesus Christ somehow never even took a dump. After all, if he did, it would have been holy ->-bleeped-<-, right?

You see the mindset. It's about dogma. It's about what a person thinks about a certain topic. This, my friends, is not Christianity. More to the point, it's not what Jesus ever taught. "You must think like me to be a Christian."

Theologically speaking, it's nothing more than self-centered, self-righteous, judgmental, egotistical excrement. So many of us in the Church have allowed ourselves to be distracted by petty doctrinal issues that we have lost sight of what Jesus DID say. He said to love each other. He didn't say we had to think a certain way. In fact, if we DO think that Jesus is "the Christ, the son of the living God," then that is revealed to us by the Father (or Mother), and not by our own ego or doctrines.

Maybe it's time for those of us who DO understand that faith is not mean to be a weapon to stand up and be counted. I don't know about you, but I'm a little more than irritated that my peaceful religion has been hijacked by a bunch of warmongering thugs over and over throughout history.

Historically, religion has been synonymous with power and corrupt controlling "authorities." We've seen it with everything from the Crusades on down to the prevailing sense of fundamentalist superiority that's common today. Without question, the Church has blood on its hands. The only way to wash it off is to recognize it and begin to treat people the way we were called to treat people:

With love. With respect. With love. And when that fails, with love.

Quote from: Julie Marie on March 03, 2007, 03:16:59 PM
That means if I live life giving and caring for others, if I love and help others, if my heart is good and I do good, I'll still go to hell if I don't believe Jesus Christ is the son of God.

Correct.

According to my baptist friend, good deeds don't get you into heaven. If you submit to His will, you're in. If you don't, his God will kill then torture both you and the people you love (if they don't submit either) for eternity... regardless of how kind and compassionate you are.

According to him, the stricter you follow God's Word, the better your seating position in heaven. If you obey really well, you get to sit right in front of God, and will "tremble in ultimate fear at his Glory forever and ever."

He said this with a frightening smile and glow in his eyes.

This same man kills animals for personal entertainment and sadistic pleasure (aka "hunting"). I asked him how he could do that, figuring it would at least demote him a few rows back in the audience of God's terror. He said "no, God put animals here for me to hunt."

These people scare the heck out of me. The fact that he's OK with his sadistic, egomanical tyrant of a "god" planning on killing and torturing me and my wife is something I just cannot understand. How can anyone worship a deity that uses emotional violence to extort worship?

I DO believe that his god exists, though not in the same way he believes it. But I will never, ever submit to such a cruel, sadistic being. We, as individuals, have far more power than we give ourselves credit for. If only we would believe THAT.

Kate

Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 08:43:41 PM

Correct.

According to my baptist friend, good deeds don't get you into heaven. If you submit to His will, you're in. If you don't, his God will kill then torture both you and the people you love (if they don't submit either) for eternity... regardless of how kind and compassionate you are.

According to him, the stricter you follow God's Word, the better your seating position in heaven. If you obey really well, you get to sit right in front of God, and will "tremble in ultimate fear at his Glory forever and ever."

These people scare the heck out of me. The fact that he's OK with his sadistic, egomanical tyrant of a "god" planning on killing and torturing me and my wife is something I just cannot understand. How can anyone worship a deity that uses emotional violence to extort worship?

Many people ascribe the Almighty with the morals and ethics of a spoiled child.  Regretably, many people learn this from their ministers.  Do These Things and YOU WILL BE SAVED!  Be ONE OF US!  Not one of those antiChrist heathens!

You know, this almost sounds like a cult.

I know a woman who fell victim to this.  Smart.  Intelligent.  Used to think for herself and wouldn't back down for anyone or anything.

When I shared with her that infamous Halloween 5 years ago that forced me to face my ->-bleeped-<-, she sent a 7 page email quoting scripture saying how I was committing a sin.  WHen I included her in an email saying how I had separated from my spouse, she sent another 7-page email quoting scripture again saying what I was doing was wrong.  (Keep in mind that I was the one kicked out!)

Too many "churches" are mind-control cults.  Not only does it divide humanity into groups of US and THEM, it also separates us from the Almighty.

Sad.

Chaunte

Jesus is the son of god
George w Bush
Love and respect
I will go to hell
Egotistical
You will be saved
Holy ->-bleeped-<-
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
I feel like a stranger in a strange land reading all this....
Ricki

Quote from: Ricki on March 03, 2007, 09:43:21 PM
I feel like a stranger in a strange land reading all this....
Ricki

That's OK Ricki, so would Jesus.

And I'm so sorry to see the hatred, insults, and stereotypes get rolled out when they had nothing to do with the question asked.  Understandable, but regrettable nonetheless.

Julie, your question is a really good one.  I will attempt to answer it from a Christian perspective if that is permitted.

I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat.  If it came across that way to you, what a shame.  For me it is wonderful news.  Religion is basically humanity's attempt to get to God.  What sets Christianity apart is that it is the story of God's attempt to get to humanity.  In order to do this, God loved us so much that God became one of us.  Jesus lived among us, loved us, showed us the true meaning of God's law, stood against hypocrisy, and eventually showed us the true nature of love by laying down his life for us. 

Because Christ is the Son of God, and because he was and is one of us, he can identify with our weaknesses and our sorrows.  He can encourage us.  He can show us the love of the Father in a way no one else could.  In this love there is forgiveness, there is peace, there is life.

No one has to believe anything, and I know many will not like what I have just written.  However, for me it is incredibly good news. 

Peace, Please!
Kristi

Quote from: Kristi on March 03, 2007, 11:21:10 PM
I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat.  If it came across that way to you, what a shame.

But isn't this "believe in Jesus or you're damned for eternity" thing part of christian doctrine in general? I realize the Born Again people tend to REALLY focus on it, but doesn't it underly all of christian belief?

I know many christians are brave enough to kinda take the good parts of the bible and ignore the mean stuff (and doing so, are they really still "christians?"), but if you go by Holy Scripture (I admittedly don't know it very well) - can I get into heaven if I'm a really nice person but DON'T believe in or follow Christ?

Kate

personally, i don't trust any kind of religious & spiritual beliefs. i was baptised catholic, but no one in my family practice this religion; it is more like a tradition not like a religion. for years, i needed to find spiritual beliefs that suit to me and really, i always was disappointed about all this.
this is not what i need in my life. i am glad that my parents helped me get scientific knowledge in college and philosophy. it was closer that what i really needed inside of me. that knowledge fed me and helped me grow up.
now, i feel more serene about all this. i know i am a [non-believer] and i feel happy this way. i don't need to spit at religions & spirituality, because my life is not invaded by such concepts.  i acknowledge the fact that everyone has more or less different [beliefs].
i am a non-believer who believes in humanness, and who is fan of planetology [exact science that studies any kind of planets]. i did choose my beliefs. i am much more aware about my own beliefs. i needed to free myself from any religious & spiritual influence. this is my own personal choice, and i feel much better after it is achieved. i am aware that labels about religious & spiritual beliefs leads to lots of misunderstanding. i think it is because they are intrinsicly incoherent, somehow. personally, i feel like every religious & spiritual beliefs are intrinsicly incoherent and limited. i deeply need to believe in something simple that is intrinsicly coherent. well, I am typing these words the way they arrive in my mind.  so no i don't believe that jesus is the son of god because i don't believe in god.  hell?  i believe each of us live our own hell here on this planet.

Hey everyone,

The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.

The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.

Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.

Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.

Love always,
Elizabeth