Yeah a lot of people would lump transgendered people in with people like cat man. But, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say, I just want to be normal. I'm not having these surgeries just because I think it's cool or because I want to be a unique special snowflake. I need to transition to be able to live and function like a normal human being. It's possible for a human to have a male or female brain. It is not possible for a human to be born with the identity of a cat. If you feel the need to modify your body to the point where you can't live a normal life and don't even want to look human, then something is wrong.

Quote from: ~RoadToTrista~ on September 04, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
Those people became obsessed with altering their face and overdid it, they could live happy lives without it, it's not the same.

I know several TS women who have had multiples of different operations trying to 'perfect' their look. Two of them have had 3+ facial surgeries and honestly after the first one, they were pretty. Both had been on HRT for years and had decent breasts, well within normal female but got BA done. Both had srs and then a revision to that done and still weren't happy. They became "obsessed" with being a perfect example of the female form. They could have lived happy lives with a LOT less surgery and neither are happy with themselves to this day.

But who are we to judge what someone else needs or perceives to need to live a happy life? Would I do it myself? I would say no in all these cases but it's not for me to judge them or their choices.

I'm not sure at what point we are required to protect people from themselves, if ever. When you start to limit the choices people have, how can you say there is "freedom"? As long as they aren't hurting other people, it's their life. People who don't understand being transgendered could easily just as easily say "Stephe screwed up their life doing this stupid living as a woman thing"... It's NOT their choice to make! That goodness most people accepted I needed to do this and are OK with it.

I honestly feel it's up to the doctor to decide if he wants to do a procedure or not. If they want to have a therapist report saying "This person isn't crazy, this is what they want" before they do something, then they have a right to ask for it. I think it's simply wrong to DEMAND a doctor get this sort of report before they can move forward no matter what the case.

Quote from: Sharky on September 04, 2011, 06:00:36 PM
Yeah a lot of people would lump transgendered people in with people like cat man. But, I don't think I'm just speaking for myself when I say, I just want to be normal. I'm not having these surgeries just because I think it's cool or because I want to be a unique special snowflake. I need to transition to be able to live and function like a normal human being. It's possible for a human to have a male or female brain. It is not possible for a human to be born with the identity of a cat. If you feel the need to modify your body to the point where you can't live a normal life and don't even want to look human, then something is wrong.

Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:01:37 PM
I'm not sure at what point we are required to protect people from themselves, if ever. When you start to limit the choices people have, how can you say there is "freedom"? As long as they aren't hurting other people, it's their life. People who don't understand being transgendered could easily just as easily say "Stephe screwed up their life doing this stupid living as a woman thing"... It's NOT their choice to make! That goodness most people accepted I needed to do this and are OK with it.

They should have the right to do whatever they want with their body, but that won't keep me from judging them.

While I sort of agree...

The truth is, look who you're using as an example. Michael Jackson, well, he was probably one of the richest musicians, if not the richest when he died. You'd be stupid to turn away that kind of money, no matter what they were offering it to you for. Most trans people like you and me don't have money like that.

Also...It's because it was 'Cosmetic,' where as SRS is classified as 'Medical,' He wasn't asking to change his identity or his gender *Which is still considered deviant and abnormal in many societies,*

And for the body modifier. Those procedures are not able to be done my medical professionals with a licence, it's unethical. Meaning that those modifications are done with no anesthetic whatsoever since they don't legally practice medicine.

I know where you're coming from, and it ticks me off too, but there are legal reasons as to why we have to get through so much ->-bleeped-<-. However, it's worth it, we have a longer road, but the trouble and the time are worth it to feel at home in your own skin, or so I think so.

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:06:23 PM
Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.

This is what I was just thinking.  What's "normal" varies from place to place anyways. 

Quote from: Wesley_33 on September 02, 2011, 06:28:37 PM
Da Monkey how did you go about finding both that didn't need a letter??

I live in Canada? Hahah

Quote from: Wesley_33 on September 02, 2011, 06:28:37 PMDa Monkey how did you go about finding both that didn't need a letter??

In the U.S., you can get T through informed consent, and I've heard of a few surgeons that either don't require a letter or don't require a letter of everyone. A friend of mine told me that Brownstein doesn't require letters on a lot of cases and that Meltzer doesn't ask for a letter if you have an M on your DL. That's for top surgery; I don't know about other surgeries. Ask around.

Quote from: Stephe on September 04, 2011, 06:06:23 PM
Who gave you the right to choose what "normal" is? Given many people define normal as being married and having 2 children of your own, most of us would never fit that one.. If this "cat person" lives in a place where he is accepted and enjoys his life, it's not my place to call that wrong just because I wouldn't choose that path. Honestly, there are places in the world where I could never "function like a normal human being" being TG but thank goodness that's not where I live.

I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.

  I just came up with a thought:  Most of us on this forum may be called dumb freaks of nature by others, but that is a lot better being a freak of your own stupidity! 
  Dumb = Mute; or a condition of nature suppressing part or parts the 'normal' human condition.  This can be treated in various ways.
  Stupid = A usually negative condition caused by the human brain overtly thinking in an odd way and cause a negative physical, written or oral action taken.  This cannot be cured once the action is taken.  Stupidity can be suppressed in the brain and the action not taken by using "common sense".
  Joelene

Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.

There are plenty of people who look like a 'normal' man or woman and are insane. Someone having body modifications and such, doesn't make them insane. Some people like to look different, want to stand out, their bodies and faces are like a work of art. Other than that, they are pretty 'normal' people and they don't need protection from themselves.
I think it would be wise to be more prudent in stating what you think is insane because you really don't know.

I don't think he is an idiot. He knows he's a human male, he just wants to be cat-LIKE.

He is saying he is cat man, not a cat - the cat is an attribute to man. To say there is only men and women but not cats doesn't make sense in this situation unless he claims that he is really a cat born in a human body.

Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.

Normal, as a term, refers to the statistical commonality.
It's conforming to the "common" or "considered common".

As in, "normal" people are straight (as that's most common), cisgender (as that's most common), members of the country's most common religion (christianity in most of the western world), have 2 point something kids, and make a medium amount of money and so on and so forth.
If you make a list of all the statistically most "common" states for people to have, you'll have a "really big list" which no human being can conform to, not all of it.

We're all abnormal.

Now, It may be that Cat has a psychological disorder, but you can't "know" that by looking at his appearance.
If you were qualified however, you "could" ascertain through a series of interviews with the man, whether or not there is a psychological disorder in place and in that case what it is.
IF, you were qualified.

However, What I've learned of psychology so far is that unless one's life is negatively affected, one can not be considered "disordered".
If Cat is happy, healthy, makes a living, doesn't have any notable problems in his life that stem from his personal beliefs, however f-ed up they may appear to you, he is not disordered.

He's not "normal", no, but neither are you, neither am I.
You may not understand or agree with what he believes in or is doing, I don't, but that just means you shouldn't do it, doesn't mean you get to call him "insane".

There are people who call me "insane" cause I've transitioned.

Quote from: Da Monkey on September 08, 2011, 07:51:32 AM
I don't think he is an idiot. He knows he's a human male, he just wants to be cat-LIKE.
He is saying he is cat man, not a cat - the cat is an attribute to man. To say there is only men and women but not cats doesn't make sense in this situation unless he claims that he is really a cat born in a human body.

There are people who believe that they aren't human, on the inside.
Most of 'em know and acknowledge however, that they are quite human, at least on the outside.
Most of 'em know and acknowledge that this is their personal belief, and not in any way empirically provable and therefore don't insist they "really are" whatever they believe they are.

So, even if he believed he was a cat born in a human body, doesn't mean he's bonkers either.

Quote from: Sharky on September 07, 2011, 11:23:02 PM
I don't chose what's normal. Normal is just the typical state. Humans are typically men or women, but never cats. It's not possible. If you want to be a cat something is abnormal/wrong with your mind. Yes normal can vary, but there still is a normal and an abnormal, and being a man cat certainly isn't. I'm not sure at where the point we are required to protect people from themselves is either, but cat man has passed it. Just because he's happy doesn't mean he is sane.

If your are a man who feels they are really a woman or vise versa, you are not normal either. I understand some people have a strong need to BE normal and why some are obsessed with passing. But there are some such as myself that aren't so we fit into this same group as the cat person you are saying has something wrong with their mind/insane.

I'm just saying be careful with that brush you are using... You basically told everyone on this forum who doesn't strive to fit into a binary gender role that they are insane. And once again; if this cat man is happy, who gave you the right to declare he has passed some line and should be protected from happiness? There are a LOT of people who would LOVE to protect trans people from themselves and STOP any physical gender therapy.

If you have enough money, the rules don't apply to you.
And exactly, where - if anywhere - in all  time and space does this/has this not been true?

I think it's simply wrong to DEMAND a doctor get this sort of report before they can move forward no matter what the case.
There is no legal 'demand' in the US, only the doctor's insurance carrier telling him that without that, they won't cover him.

Normal is ALWAYS related to current NORM of the culture you live in.

We don't go head hunting and then hang 'shrink heads' into our living room.
Something quite normal with some other folks.

Now, there is a very CLEAR knowing that culture actually holds us hostage!
I have seen it in some more extreme circumstances and can tell you is absolutely true.

In SA we actually can look over our 'Tellerrand' edge of the soup plate and see how this works for the other cultures we share the place with.
X number of African tribal cultures, Asian, Chinese, Mixed blood Coloureds incl. Malay, Bushman, etc. and then Whites or Caucasians, Europeans.

We usually do not notice our own lot, yet easily see their "abnormal" (by comparison) behaviour. Of course they see the same visa versa in Europeans.

So, normal is what adheres to the currently ruling cultural NORM.

Axelle

I don't think abnormal = insane. I'm aware that insane people can look normal. And that no one is normal in every instance since normal varies. I don't think having mods makes someone insane. But is there a point where mods can go too far?

Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?

I don't know if he has a psychological disorder, but I can assume. I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist.  He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.

He wants to become his spiritual self.  At some point he was told that a tiger was his totem animal and he has been obsessed ever since. His goal is to make his body match his spiritual image.

I know being trans isn't normal. I don't think someone is insane if they don't care about passing. Nor do I believe gender queer people are insane, since you actually can be born outside the gender binary. Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.

But is there a point where mods can go too far?
Doesn't that depend on the person who is getting them?

Why do we intervene when someone wants to spend their life getting high or kill themselves, but not when they want to become another species? It's their body, there's no going too far, so they can do absolutely anything with it, right?
Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people, and cause suicide kills people.
Exactly who is he killing?

I can assume for the same reasons that no doctor has or will do any work on him. He goes to some body mod artist.  He has done everything with no anaesthetic, since only doctors can give it.
Actually, it's because doctors can't "legally" do many of the body mods he's sought out.
See, it isn't a matter of him going to a doc and saying "I would like these face implants" and getting told no, it's a case of those implants simply being completely unavailable "outside" of body mod artists.

Pretending to be a cat doesn't actually make you a cat and I'm sure his transformation does have some negative effects.
This is, again, an assumption.
He seems happy with his life.

You're assuming a lot about a man simply based off of his appearance.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're assuming.

Meaning, you don't know.
You don't have objective facts on which to base the assumption other than your knee jerk reactions to a man's appearance.

You don't have the qualification to call the man mentally ill and even if you did you do not have the information required to gauge his mental stability.
As such, it doesn't matter whether a man can be a cat or not nor why. You don't have a say in whether or not he's mad what so ever.

Well, because drugs are illegal and they kill people

Well thank god we put laws in place to stop that.  Otherwise we'd have drugs everywhere.  By the way, they might kill people, but only slowly.  There were more hospital emergency room visits last year for toothpicks than heroin (as there are EVERY year) but I don't hear people wanting to ban toothpicks.

Quote from: dmx on September 02, 2011, 06:42:00 PM
I agree it's messed up. But I think MJ had vitiligo and had no control over his skin pigment changing.

HE DID