Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Hey everyone,

The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.

The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.

Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.

Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Dude, Elizabeth is badass.  I love it.

Seriously, to Hell with this conventional, tyrannical "God" figure.  I honestly could care less.  It's a made-up thing.  It's nonsense.  It makes no sense.  Once again, I am baffled at how stupid the majority of people are.

I like how smart Elizabeth is, though!

~ Blair

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
Hey everyone,

The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.

The Bible says Adam named all the animals, but any animal not known about at the time the bible was written, is never mentioned, such as Kangaroos. But even if you chose to beleive it, with the billions of species of animals and insects, he could never have named them all if he did nothing else his entire life.

Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.

Never the less, people are willing to discount all the evidence and without one shred of proof, other than brainwashing, beleive in this mystical figure. People beleive because they are threatened from the time they are born with eternal damnation. It's simple psychological conditioning. It doesn't matter that it's irrational. Most people just don't have the fortitude to say "->-bleeped-<- God!!!!". They are too afraid of eternal damnation.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I agree, people are willing to discount all of the evidence.  Historical evidence in particular.  While this may sound like a good refutation of the Bible in general, there is one huge problem.  It is historically very inaccurate.  Furthermore, the Bible does not teach those things, although I will grant you that some say that it does.  Without getting into a peeing match it really impossible to even deal with statements such as these, and they are, again, not responsive to the question asked.  Perhaps a later discussion.

Back to the question at hand,

Quote from: Kate on March 03, 2007, 11:35:48 PM

Quote from: Kristi on March 03, 2007, 11:21:10 PM
I have never thought of the Son of God as a threat.  If it came across that way to you, what a shame.

But isn't this "believe in Jesus or you're damned for eternity" thing part of christian doctrine in general? I realize the Born Again people tend to REALLY focus on it, but doesn't it underly all of christian belief?

Wonderful question, Kate.  Does it underly all of Christian belief?  No it does not.  There are many Christians who (for Biblical reasons) disagree on even the existence of heaven and hell.  If you want to know more about that, let me know.  Personally, I find it fascinating to note that Jesus only talked about eternal punishment in reference to the religious hypocrites of his day.  The bulk of Christianity is concerned with a way of life, a way of love.  It is not about being good enough to please God.  It is not about performance up to a certain level.  It is about unconditional acceptance and peace.

Peace, Please!

Kristi

QuoteSo if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?

Either that, or you could be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or some other religion that does not believe him to be the messiah. I'm Jewish, and I do think that Jesus was a great teacher of his time. Buddha, Mohamed, etc were all great teachers too.

I have friends who are true Christians, ie act in true accordance with his teachings, and they are wonderful people who are deeply offended at the way many other Christians do things in his name.

zythyra

Quote from: David W. Shelton on March 03, 2007, 06:47:52 PM
... that Jesus Christ somehow never even took a dump. After all, if he did, it would have been holy ->-bleeped-<-, right?

David, you are great!  This comment had me pounding my desk laughing.

I've read a few posts from your blog, and I like them very much.  So I should point out that you have a typo in your signature: the link to your blog is written as "skippingtotheiccolo," so I had to correct it manually to get it to work.  You might want to correct that.

Quote from: zythyra on March 04, 2007, 08:33:59 AM

QuoteSo if I don't believe Christ is the son of God I will go to hell?

Either that, or you could be Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, pagan, or some other religion that does not believe him to be the messiah. I'm Jewish, and I do think that Jesus was a great teacher of his time. Buddha, Mohamed, etc were all great teachers too.

I have friends who are true Christians, ie act in true accordance with his teachings, and they are wonderful people who are deeply offended at the way many other Christians do things in his name.

zythyra

This reminds me of the episode of South Park when David Blaine starts a cult that he is leading to mass suicide, and Jesus calls together the "Super Best Friends", consisting of him, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Krishna, and Lau-Tzu to stop Blaine.  This episode contains this quote:

Stan: So you mean to tell me that even though people fight and argue over different religions, you guys are all actually friends?
Mohammed: More than friends, young boy, we are super best friends, with the desire to fight for justice.
Joseph Smith: We all believe in the power of good over evil. Except for Buddha, of course, who doesn't believe in evil.

I agree that Christians who live by love (the real kind of Christians) should be offended at the (so-called) Christians who live by hate.

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM
The Sumarian's knew nothing of god. The Egyptians knew nothing of God. The Greeks knew nothing of God. The fossil record refutes the bible in countless ways, including the fact that we have fossils of humans dating back at least 6 million years. Written language dating back 15,000 years. Pictures and sculptures dating back 30,000 years. According to the bible, which has only been around a few thousand years at best, Adam and Eve were here just over 6,000 years ago.

No...  They just had a different spin.  The Sumarians knew of the Almighty, they just broke Him/Her up into multiple pieces!  So did the Babylonians.  So did the Egyptians.

Speaking of which...  As I recall, the pharaoh before Ramses was monotheistic!  He closed all the temples save one.  I believe it was Ra's, but don't hold me to that.  This angered the temple priests (duh!) and led to his early demise!  Ramses promised to reopen the temples, so had the backing of the priests.  Even then, power & politics will overwhelm a religion.

THe problem is misusing Scripture.

Scripture describes the relationship between the Almighty & humanity.  Trying to use Scripture to prove that the Earth was formed October 23, 4004 BC is asinine.  This is what a 17th century theologian calculated.  To say that the sounding of horns caused the walls of Jericho to fall does not take into account that Jericho is built directly on a very active fault.  You're right, Elizabeth.  A lot of things do not hold up under scientific scrutiny.

This is what happens when a spiritual book is used to provide a history.  It's like using a hammer to drive in a screw.  It can be used, but not well.

Regretably, scripture is too often used to support the concept of You're either with us, or against us.  That is the failing of many communities.

If you are not a Christian, does that mean you will go to hell?  No.

I believe that we will be plesantly surprised at the number of non-Christian we will find in Heaven.  And we just may notice the number of supposed Christians who will be missing from the rank & file.

Chaunte

The responses above tell me something about the people here, they think for themselves.  How wonderfully refreshing!

David, I absolutely loved your response!  Honestly, I never knew how to respond to this nonsense, you must believe of else, it says so in the Bible.  Now with your words and the words of the other member here, I have something of substance to support my beliefs.

For me, the Bible has become a totally misused book that holier-than-thou people use to make themselves feel good.  I figure when the time comes to be judged they will get a tongue lashing.  They will certainly have some words for me but they will know what I did I did from the heart, not the ego.

I will not change my beliefs because they have worked so beautifully for me.  I know when I do good.  I know when I do bad.  All I have to do is look at the results, not some "rule book".  And I think that's the problem with the pompous, self-righteous individuals who abuse the Bible.  They take what is written in the Bible to support their wrongdoings.  It's okay to hate gays and lesbians and transgender people, the Bible says so.  That kind of thing.  Is it any wonder why I never felt compelled to read the Bible?

Love is what matters most, not some words in a book.  Love your fellow man.  Love the creatures around you.  Love all the creations of God and treat them with kindness and caring.  If you do you won't have to worry about St. Peter.  You'll have a VIP pass.

Julie

I see a lot of dogma sneaking it's way into this discussion and very little substance. If the Summarians, the Greeks, or the Egyptians knew of the Christian God, it certainly was not reflected in thier cultures, writings or artwork. This does not even really talk about the Chinese, Asia and the rest of the world, who also all knew nothing of the Christian God.

Religious doctrine is not history. It would be like finding a copy of Harry Potter three thousand years from now and saying it must all be true. I don't want to get into a pissing match either, but if one is going to try to say that the world always knew of god and I am somehow mistaken about this, I would really like to see the documentation. Please, do not refer me to religious texts of the Current Era as proof.

My point is simple, the world had been around a long time before anyone ever mentions God or Christ, of Judeaism, Islam, or Christianity, the "god" religions. And, most of the worlds population, thier entire history exists without anyone every metioning these mythical beings.

My experience with theologians is that they tend to try to find a way to make the world fit thier particular religion, as opposed to looking at history and seeing what it really tells us.

We live in a universe that is so big, our minds can not even comprehend it. We can not make an analogy to describe how insignificant we are in the universe. We can see galaxies that the light has been traveling to us for 14,000,000,000 years. Religious doctrine simply can not account for this. Not to mention flat out mistakes, like saying the stars are immoble and are in a firmament. Or that witches exist.

I am open to learning, but not religious dogma. If anyone has evidence that these other cultures knew about the god in the bible, I am more than willing to look at it and concede my mistake. I have yet to see such evidence. Only religious doctrine making claims.

Love always,
Elizabeth

I agree with Elizabeth.

The Bible is not a historical document.  It is a collection of stories.  The Bible is a reflection of the culture at the time.  Even an annotated version of the book will usually concede this much, at least some of the time.  Some of it is worthless garbage, but The Bible can also communicate some valuable truths.  I believe people who understand the context of The Bible are typically best equipped to bring out those constructive ideas -- it's not a necessary or sufficient condition, but it seems to make a big difference.

Quoteyou must believe of else, it says so in the Bible.

yes.. My normal response to this is:
So if I write a book, and place the line: Everything in this book is the truth, does that make my book a valid recording of the actual truth?
...
...
...
Even if I insert pink flying hippos?

I am not even going to touch this subject.

Given the potential volatility of the subject, I am almost surprised that the thread was initiated.

Quote from: rhonda13000 on March 05, 2007, 03:38:06 PM
Given the potential volatility of the subject, I am almost surprised that the thread was initiated.

I guess you don't know me very well. 

Julie

So it would seem.

My Bible shows that the Lord said you must believe and that the disciples said likewise. The laws and prophets bear witness to their words so I believe it. I also believe that since it is of faith I don't need to see any proof. If other cultures or nations would have written history of it that I knew about to me it would no longer be of faith. Because of that I really don't care what other people believe or have recorded. Most of my battles and disagreements are with Christians anyway.
Tiff

This puts it into perspective for me.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/KissingHanksAss.mov

Love always,
Elizabeth

"Most of my battles and disagreements are with Christians anyway."

Well, alright.

So are mine, just as was experienced earlier today. But appealing to these is largely as effective and productive as conversing with my bottle of "Obsession" perfume.

They will acknowledge the existence of other birth defects, medical and neuro-morphological defects of the mind, but for some 'reason' if such involves specifically a gender anomaly, it and its resolution is contrary to the will of God.

Just why is such a dichotomy and variance in interpretation being made here?

Why should this be the exception?

Why when pressed, can these not cite 'chapter and verse' and adduce solid Scriptural support in substantiation of what they want badly to believe, notwithstanding the fact that in reality, God does not share their delusion?

There is nothing in Scripture that militates nor proscribes against what I am fighting to survive against.

This however will not dissuade me from discarding my own faith and this is why I am presently in something of a strange situation and dilemma.

Chaunte said:

QuoteSpeaking of which...  As I recall, the pharaoh before Ramses was monotheistic!  He closed all the temples save one.  I believe it was Ra's, but don't hold me to that.  This angered the temple priests (duh!) and led to his early demise!  Ramses promised to reopen the temples, so had the backing of the priests.  Even then, power & politics will overwhelm a religion.

That would be Akhan Aten.  (my spelling may be wrong).  His sect worshiped only one god, the sun (Aten).  He abolished all other gods in his kingdom and forced the nation to follow the one god of the sun.  He built a new capitol city.  He was NOT popular.  When he died, much of his religion and most of the records of his existance were wiped from Egyptian history.

I belive that it is VERY interesting to note, that the 12 tribes of Israel left shortly after his demise.  Could it not be possible that they were the remnants of Aten's faith who could not give it up and resort back to the previous religions as everyone else did?  They certainly would not be popular among the general population.

I know that this is very far off the subject of this thread... but I just had to throw it out there for general consumption.

So... back to the thread. People do what they do.  Until they learn something of the world, they need their security blanket of hate.  Once they learn to love, then they become the beings their god intended them to be.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 05, 2007, 05:44:56 PM
So... back to the thread. People do what they do.  Until they learn something of the world, they need their security blanket of hate.  Once they learn to love, then they become the beings their god intended them to be.

It's a theology of fear and despair more than hate, I think Cindy. It says the most glorious moment in human history will be the end of human history instead of any zenith. We saw a glimpse of this in Jesus Camp, this sort of strange spiritual Darwinsim that exists within the Dominionists.

I think this movement preys of the despair that is indemic in American society, and it depends on those in the middle class that have been devoured by the violations of both parties in the last two decades and the abolition of the labor movement. I think the Dominionist movement promises them a kind of magic where Jesus will save them from their disenchantment.

Brilala

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
I see a lot of dogma sneaking it's way into this discussion and very little substance. If the Summarians, the Greeks, or the Egyptians knew of the Christian God, it certainly was not reflected in thier cultures, writings or artwork. This does not even really talk about the Chinese, Asia and the rest of the world, who also all knew nothing of the Christian God.

I wasn't trying to ay that they believed in the Judeo/Christian/Muslim God.  Rather, they did believe in god/s.  Looking back at what I wrote, I can see where I misled & misspoke and I apologize for that.

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
Religious doctrine is not history.

I quite agree.  Neither is scripture history.  That's not its purpose. 

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM

My point is simple, the world had been around a long time before anyone ever mentions God or Christ, of Judeaism, Islam, or Christianity, the "god" religions. And, most of the worlds population, thier entire history exists without anyone every metioning these mythical beings.

Quite true.

If you get a chance, I think you would enjoy the book Noah's Flood, by Pitman and Ryan.  No, it is not a religious book by any means.  Rather, its about trying to find the real history behind the Great Flood story.  They put together a very convincing case that the Great Flood actually describes the ...  Well, I don't want to give the book away!  I think you would find the implications regarding language, culture and genetics fascinating.  I certainly did!

Again, I'm sorry for not speaking clearly earlier.

Chaunte

Quote from: Chaunte on March 05, 2007, 06:45:05 PM

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 05, 2007, 09:58:20 AM
Religious doctrine is not history.

I quite agree.  Neither is scripture history.  That's not its purpose.

The problem seems to be that a huge chunk of the population believes and acts (and votes) as if religion is a literal and historical account that may not be questioned by the masses -- you accept that this is not religion's purpose, but there is a group of people who *do* give doctrine that purpose.  Such Christians generally elieve the rapture will happen, and most of those feel it is imminent.  As long as people of any faith live this way, they *will* pose substantial interference for everyone else.  No one here may identify with this group, but I think regardless of whether you follow a particular faith or are agnostic/atheist, I think we should agree to reject the *behaviors* and *attitudes* of those who wish to impose their wills on others.

Quote from: Elizabeth on March 04, 2007, 02:02:25 AM

Then you have 1.3 billion Chinese, 1 Billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, not to mention the religions of North and South American Natives as well as Australian natives, all of whom do not beleive in Christ and it gets to the point of being ridiculous.

Like that South Park 'Jesus vs the Devil' episode, where, like, 1,026 people are in Heaven, and the In Hell list just scrolls on and on in the zillions, so God has to readust the criteria in order to win...