I pose this incendiary question. I need a sample of answers because I may come to write about it. I don't want you to think of the current definition of transsexual. I was wondering if there are people who consider being or becoming transsexual the big facet of their identity.

This is what I mean: Imagine you don't consider yourself a man or woman, you consider yourself a transsexual. Why? For what gain? Would you not ultimately consider yourself androgyn if that were the case? Would androgyn people be offended? Would transsexual people be offended? Just something that intrigues me every now and then.

I guess I want the answer to these Q?'s (and please refrain from taking anyone's response personally, if you can't do so, PM me):

Have you ever heard of someone who considers themselves a transsexual and not a mtf or ftm?

Are you a person who considers ... ''

What would be your reaction to someone who told you they wanted to become transsexual?

What might you think a valid treatment for this person may be?

There is one way that I can see this making sense. A person might not have a binary identity yet be transsexual in the sense that they have the body discomfort that many transsexual people have. Usually they don't identify as transsexual as a gender in and of itself. It's more likely that they consider themselves a non binary gender (ex: gender queer, androgyne, bigender, pangender, agender) but identify their physical self with some sort of binary.

Take for example a person who is assigned male at birth. Somebody can be assigned male at birth and identify their physical self and relate to their body as if it were a female body (example: trans women). In the cases of some people with non binary identities some might identify their physical bodies with the language "opposite" if their assigned sex...and in that case can be transsexual and not identify as a man or woman (specifically).

I would tend to assume they just hadn't expressed themselves very well, and were new to the mess of terminology in the trans community.

Nygeel, your point is clever. But I'd think they'd still identify as transsexual "something." I.e. transsexual female, or transsexual male, instead of transsexual woman or transsexual man. And I don't think they'd describe it as "wanting to become transsexual" regardless.

Really it sounds quite odd. Like someone telling you they want to become gay. I wouldn't be offended... somewhat confused, yes, but not offended.

And Emma, if we are to ignore the current definition of transsexual, than it can mean becoming a banana farmer if you want it to. Either we accept the current definition or the question becomes kind of meaningless.

Maybe a transsexual woman would feel that she doesn't deserve to be called a woman because of her biology. I feel that way sometimes, not with my gender identity, but with my sexual orientation. And it also has to do with like, people judging transsexuals as gay men who want to predator on straight men. Frankly it doesn't matter who I'm attracted to, but I happen to be attracted to guys so, it kind of makes me not want to identify as a straight woman, but definitely not as a gay man.

Quote from: Sarah7 on September 08, 2011, 07:27:40 PM
I would tend to assume they just hadn't expressed themselves very well, and were new to the mess of terminology in the trans community.

Nygeel, your point is clever. But I'd think they'd still identify as transsexual "something." I.e. transsexual female, or transsexual male, instead of transsexual woman or transsexual man. And I don't think they'd describe it as "wanting to become transsexual" regardless.

Really it sounds quite odd. Like someone telling you they want to become gay. I wouldn't be offended... somewhat confused, yes, but not offended.

And Emma, if we are to ignore the current definition of transsexual, than it can mean becoming a banana farmer if you want it to. Either we accept the current definition or the question becomes kind of meaningless.

I suppose that they could be, but part of the hypothetical was "Imagine you don't consider yourself a man or woman, you consider yourself a transsexual." Which is what I was mostly addressing.

hmm, I have never been so hot on the term MTF because that at one point implies I was a man. I tend to prefer transwoman, since it leaves out the M bit. However, I do identify as being a woman, I only see the trans as being important to add in front of it, when it is needed, much like Ciswoman would be used specifically to exclude transpeople. I consider myself a transexual because i am planning to/in the start of transitioning, however I don't really find myself comfortable being defined by my transexuality.

As to the first question, I can see how some people could take that sort of Idea that I have and go further and deny having any label at all aside from transexual perhaps not even defining a gender binary at all. For the record, I definitely consider myself a woman hence an MTF, even if I am not so hot on the term. Though I cannot recall a specific person meeting the criteria in the first question.

As to the second question, I think if someone asked me that, I would try to figure out if they had gender dysphoria. I mean, people phrase things like that all the time "I want to become a woman" is something many people say in lieu of "I have always been a woman, and I need to medically transition to female in order to make my body match my perceptions and feelings". After all, it certainly is alot shorter.

Taking the second question further, if someone didn't have GID, nor did they have a profound desire to live as another gender (or androgynous) I would have to tell them that I don't have the experience to help them. To me that is tantamount to someone asking me to change their sexual orientation for them, I don't think it can be done, and if it could, I certainly couldn't help them.

As far as a valid treatment for that person, probably some real therapy to see why that person feels that way. Transition isn't really for someone who doesn't want to live in the target gender. I mean, I could see someone who wants to transition to androgynous and for them, I say the treatment would be to transition as far away from their birth gender as they feel comfortable doing.

I do see myself as a transsexual rather than just as a man. Personally, I think that makes me more than a man, not less. I identify that way because I want to bring transsexuality into the everyday light and not go into "stealth" mode. I think it's important for people to meet transsexuals and find out they're regular folks for the most part.

Of course being transexual is a valid identity among the vast spectrum of identities. Surely to deny any human being the validity of their identity would be both cruel and wrong.

NO. I consider it a descriptor word but not an identity.

Quote from: Caseyy on September 08, 2011, 08:08:01 PM
Hm, I don't know. I suppose I can see someone identifying as transsexual for political reasons. Like, because of all the crap they had to put up with for who they are, they may align with trans people politically. I imagine they have GID like the rest of us, they just place more emphasis on their social position as opposed to physical/mental identity.

That's how I feel. Trans- means in motion, so you're in the process of moving from one gender to the other. I wouldn't want to identify as Trans in the long term, but must for the years of the in-between stage.
I want the mainstream society to identify me as a woman but use Transgendered(MTF) as a way to speak to my community here.

Great question by the way...

Jen

Quote from: Jenny_B_Good on September 08, 2011, 09:05:56 PM

I want the mainstream society to identify me as a woman but use Transgendered(MTF) as a way to speak to my community here.

I feel differently. I think that "trans" is a discriptor of the type of man I am. I feel like it isn't a verb (aka shouldn't have an "ed" tagged on the end) and "MTF" or "FTM" implies a start point and an end point while also focusing on just sex. I use trans woman or trans man instead.

I believe it was Cindy James (or maybe someone else) earlier who said something which seems apt to this thread:

There are seven billion people with seven billion identities.

Very interesting, maybe I should add a poll.

I see it as an "intermediate identity' , one that serves us whilst we start, and go through, transition.

Frankly, and it has been already mentioned, some times I do not feel like a woman, yet never feel like a man.
The 'man thing' repulses me, it is connected to too much misunderstandings, pain, tensions, discomfort, and generally ALWAYS being in the wrong place.

The female side just sometime goes to a 'zero' on my emo dial.
But take NOTE! I do notice when it happens!

I spoke to ggs about this feeling of 'zero' or just neutral, and after some short reflection it was agreed to be just normal for this to be so.

I think we are for quite some time in 'transsexual mode' until one's gender of choice as been fully assimilated. Then if you go to 'zero' you will not question, nor even take note of it.

So again, transsexual to me seems a "transitionary identity", one that people can also relate to for instance if you clocked, and get asked about what your 'case' is.

As far as Andro is concerned it leaves most anyone and their uncle with one big fat question mark.
Often the Andro person being included, it's just that they seem so much more often then not, perfectly fine by living in this big ?

Axelle

I think some people do have that identity.  I don't understand it personally, but I don't understand having the identity of "man" either.

I'm certainly not offended by somebody having a TS identity and I don't see why it would not be valid.

Honestly, it always is frustrating, dealing with labels. Labels are simply expectations, there's no identity on earth I consider to be wrong unless it requires breaking the law; to me, it doesn't matter if an identity is based in gender, religion, a career, sports, ect ect, everyone has an identity, and only for the most stereotypical people does that identity reach only to "boy" or "girl".

For me, my identity is based on many things, way more things than gender. Every career choice, every hobby, every interest, and every expression is part of my identity; however, all of those things do connect in obvious ways to the fact that, my entire life, I've always wanted to be a girl or at least a very pretty boy.

And for me, it's always been tough to say "I want to be a girl." because to be quite honest, transitioning is a scary thought. However, every tiny thing I've always wanted, and every tiny thing I enjoy, and every tiny way I express myself - it all comes together and creates what is defined as a girl. I have it all on the inside, and I merely want my outside to express that exact incarnation.

I have absolutely not one tiny reason why I would want to look like a masculine, rugged man, and it's painful every day to wake up as one. I want to transition, and never look back on the face and body I have now - being able to finally represent myself would open up so many natural doors for me; relationships, specific job opportunities (female actress roles), confidence, clothing, everything that makes up the life of someone who doesn't have our disorder.

For me, being transsexual is about knowing that you truly don't have one solid reason to be in the body you were born with. People without our disorder like their own natal sex because, egged on by their interests, hobbies, and careers, they find beneficial reasons to be the sex they were born with. All the men who love sports, all the girls who love skirts, many people out there happily are very stereotypical about their own sex and enjoy being who they are. But for me, my face and body is not a part of my identity, it's something I have to constantly ignore and disassociate myself with in order to function and live, and that is simply extremely unhealthy. People have to be proud of the bodies they live in, and I simply want to achieve that.

Of coarse, I want surgery, and of coarse, I want hormones. Even if I accomplish every goal I want with my body, will I say "I'm a girl." in the end? Again, it's a very strange thing to say, and I sometimes do find myself saying "I'm a transsexual" instead. I mean, I've dealt with a lot in my years of living, one of those things being that I wasn't born a girl. I healthily accepted that phrase a long time ago, and I've healthily accepted that I know I have a transition to undergo. So somehow, I see my end result as being neither male or female, but more as a representation of "me". I mean, I was born a boy, and that'll always be a fact. Why do I have to fight with the terminology of that, just to achieve the physical representation of "me" that I want?

Another thing I fight constantly with is the fact that I do believe I'll never look fully like a girl. I have so many, many secondary male traits, especially facially, that I do not believe (and this is concluded with my extensive education in craniofacial surgery and aesthetics) I'll ever look totally female. I do believe, very painfully, that I may have to accept being "androgynous" in the end, in the best case surgical scenario. However, no matter what label I feel I will have to accept in the end, I know that I do want as many improvements (FFS) as I can; no matter wether I'll ever look totally female or not, I know that I want a face that truly is more harmonious, bright, healthy, and soft. It's the most important thing in the world to me.

One thing I personally see about myself is I feel like, as of right now, I look like a mixture of Shrek, Tom Cruise, and Milla Jovovich. I look uncannily like Milla Jovovich in overall character, same hair, same wide-set dark eyes, same chin, I really look a lot like her - she even has a prominent brow bone. However, my own facial features have truly become severe in the past few years, and the Shrek and Tom Cruise has come out way, way too much. I know it's time to let the Milla shine through again; with a bit of brow reduction and nasal revision, I could literally be her twin. However, with my current features, I'm unmistakingly a boy, there's not one percentage of my current face that could fool anyone.

I really don't know why it's important to put labels on ourselves and to have endless discussions about that labels.
For me, I'm just an ordinairy woman, who had a long and hard way to get the body that belongs to that woman.
Emma...you're just a woman who is walking that way to get the body that suits you.

It's just that simple.
Maybe it's too simple but hey......read my signature.

It surely depends where you're from, too. As a non-American, I still find the word "transsexual" alien, since the standard term over here in Britain is "transgender". And "transsexual" inevitably makes me think of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, too, since that's where I first heard the term . I can't help making a mental association between the word and "sexuality", since it most obviously parallels "homosexual" and "bisexual" - I just don't hear the claimed "sexual of course means sex as in male/female" sense, which to me feels forced and old-fashioned.

I've no interest in ever using it to describe myself or anyone else, as I'm not comfortable with it as a term. If someone else used it to describe themselves, I'd just do what I try to do when someone uses any label, which is to ask what it means to them - since you can never, never assume. As it goes, I don't use the word transgender either, I always say to people "I'm currently going through a gender transition" - it's something happening, not something I "am". As far as I'm concerned, I was supposed to be a woman but got kidnapped before I was born - now I'm just heading home.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AMTranssexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions here. I think different people just have very different associations with the words. For example, I won't let someone call me "transsexual" (just because they think as a pre-op I come under that heading in their minds) - because I don't like the word. Shame is non-existent and irrelevant to this dislike.

I still think you're assuming - not wishing to be stigmatised is just as likely to be a response of self-care as one of shame. If a label is sometimes loaded in an unappealing way, I think it's a positive thing to make the choice not to have it hung on me. It is of course, as you say, also possible that certain people don't want to be tarred with whatever they think the tar is on that brush because they're ashamed (or afraid).

I'm sorry if I've been a little "prickly" in my response to what you've been saying - I think it's because (due the the shame part) it felt to me a little like you were saying that as someone who wants to have surgery, I "should" want to call myself transsexual, and if I don't there's something wrong with me! I'm sure that's not what you're actually saying. And I understand that given some of the connotations of transgender, you don't want to be pushed under that label against your wishes any more than I want to be pushed under the other - or either label, for that matter. Labels should be a matter of self-choice, ideally, and trying to make them one-size-fits-all in as individual a context as this is bound to be unsatisfactory.