One big reason I ask is because I think of people who will approach a doc with a different understanding of their trans identity and explain to them: "for various reasons I feel I am not what I was born as, but I understand that I will never fit into any binary no matter what. I still want to address my transsexual identity by transitioning, and I want to be acknowledged as a transsexual publicly and legally from here on out."

I can see that happening somehow.

It's all so loaded, isn't it? If only it were as simple as this: anyone who experiences themselves as being a different sex/gender (or somewhere in that field of play) from the one they were born presenting as, and wishes or needs some kind of change to experience that and or present it comfortably could just do so. Then no names or diagnoses would be necessary.

But there are politics, and finances, and prejudices, and historical misdiagnoses at work, and so it's so easy for individuals at one place in that field of play to feel marginalised by the way the system approaches dealing with helping people to do this.

Personally, I don't have an issue with someone wanting me to accept them as a man or woman (or something they feel is neither) if they experience themselves as that, regardless of how they choose to present and whether the journey for them involves surgery or hormones or any changes of outward appearance or not. But the impact of a history of the health professions pathologising this, and a history of general and religious prejudice, and a history of blistering attacks from certain feminists, has left this terrible divisive battle zone where people are made to feel the need to justify their desire or position or whatever for safety's sake (instead of simply rejoicing in it and being rejoiced in), and to do that sometimes at each others' expense. And people who have been through all that and got to where they want to be sometimes are not allowed simply to say: this is me now, end of story.

As far as identity or categorizing myself goes, I'm just me.  Transsexual is just a term and says nothing about one's personality.  I am defined by WHO I am and not WHAT I am.

I added a poll, and I tried to word it in a way that makes sense. Hard to do.

I would just like to say that I think we have all done a wonderful job discussing this so far with tact. Things tend to get really loaded when it comes to our opinions on identity. I am happy to read all the well thought out and nonaggresive posts, truly it brings a smile to my face.

As to the poll, I say yes, since someone who doesn't have a gender binary may not reach an "end" to their transition therefore are always trans in some way. While I personally only identify as a woman I can see how it could be hard to come to grips with things, if you were somewhere in between, but still felt the desire to transition at least partway away from the birth gender.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AM
Yes, there could be a generational aspect too. Younger folks may prefer one word and older another. Maybe some of the usage is not our fault as much as what era and location we grew up in.

What a ridiculous issue this is. As if our condition isnt challenging enough. Why in the world did people decide to use different words (shame, likely). Then its compounded that with some usage they are intentionally intended to have different meanings.

We can only blame the community itself, which is all of us. Transsexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.

Whether because of shame or something else, we have certainly proven ourselves poor stewards of our nomenclature, that's for sure.  Maybe we need somebody from the outside to come in and tell us once and for all what all these terms actually mean lol.

Quote from: Jen on September 10, 2011, 10:03:04 PM
Maybe we need somebody from the outside to come in and tell us once and for all what all these terms actually mean lol.

That would make a great spectator sport .

Congratulations Emma on a nice topic and on how it is being conducted.

I'm not sure if I could ever accept myself as transsexual or transgendered. They are words used to describe a situation to those who do not understand the situation. Because of how humans communicate we have describe events in a way that the 'lowest denominators' in the group can follow (not meant rudely). So we build a language, but as soon as that language is created it is subject to change and interpretation.  Hence lawyers. But the intent of the language was to describe for those who cannot physically observe, what is happening.

The down side of language is that people have visual perceptions of it, 'I'm transgendered' 'Oh I saw people like you in the Rocky Horror Show' No they did not. 'I'm a transsexual' ' 'Oh next time you are doing your drag show call us and we will come along' They do not understand.

The terms themselves do not convey the information. They have become misunderstood. They present pictures that are false. So how can we  (royal we) accept a definition of my life style as being transsexual? I cannot.

How do I define myself? That is an interesting question. I was asked it last night to join a couple of woman for after dinner drinks, I looked alone and out of place they said. My voice gave me away, I think,  and we talked about all sorts of things in a friendly open manner, yes we were sloshed .  I was never asked if I was a TS or a TG.  I was a woman with a deepish voice.


I can only accept a definition as being female, which is biologically incorrect. I do refer to myself as an XY-female to my medical team, which is correct.

Cindy

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 05:55:23 AM
Transsexuals who use the word transgender instead proliferate the problem. I think it partly comes down to shame.

I remember coming out alot of folks were uncomfortable with calling me a transsexual and would use transgender to me to my face.

That is so utterly wrong in so any different ways.

I label myself as Transgender and it is NOT because of shame. I am the first transgender girl who ever applied to my Christian Seminary. I speak at trans events as a Transgender Seminary Student to bridge gaps between gender identity and harmony between the church. Do you think someone who is shameful about their gender identity would put themselves through that? I think not.

For you it may be because of shame but don't assume that with those who use the word transgender are girls too scared or too meek or shameful to use the label transsexual.

I use transgender over transsexual because it has nothing to do with my sexuality. It has everything to do with my gender. Both Transgender and transsexual has "trans" in it which means to crossover.  I am not crossing over any sexuality as this is about gender for me; so I Chose Transgender as my gender presentation has changed.

Also, you got Homosexual, Heterosexual, Bisexual, Asexual, and then you got transsexual. Every other word in this group implies their sexual attraction. For example: homo=same, Hetero= different, A= none; so yeah. What about transsexual? Oh, that has nothing to do with your sexuality. Well, based on it's own meaning of "sexual" and the way its group with these others many people would assume a transsexual can be someone attracted to trans people. The term is antiquated and old. And it is horribly misdefined. I chose not to use it. I don't. There is no shame in it. If other people wish to use it, then fine. But don't go around saying "people who don't use it is ashamed of who they are"

Gets me all riled up when people assume things just because they want to be labeled as something else other than transsexual. I guess all of the United Kingdom is shameful too as their official term is transgender. The BS of one term being better is getting quite old and reminds me of a bunch of older ladies arguing about which of their bowling balls are prettier.

You're going to have to make peace with that fact that not everyone will agree with "Transsexual" and it's not because they are ashamed of who they are. And people will continue to use transgender for decades to come. I will be one of them. You may think it's wrong or that I am ashamed but oh well. I will still use it.

I have changed my gender presentation, not gender, and I also plan on changing much of my physical sex. The term should really be transsexed if they expect permanent, literal labels. I like the Solidarity of the lgbt inclusive umbrella, but telling someone about myself doesn't work out well when I use transgender.

Female after surgery, and transsexual until then work for me until we get something better. I think I'm okay with every viewpoint captured here...

Also, I'm convinced there has to be a summit to iron this out.

Mods- I don't think I can, so will someone please close the thread. (unless you want it open)

Quote from: EmmaM on September 11, 2011, 11:23:37 AM
I have changed my gender presentation, not gender, and I also plan on changing much of my physical sex. The term should really be transsexed if they expect permanent, literal labels. I like the Solidarity of the lgbt inclusive umbrella, but telling someone about myself doesn't work out well when I use transgender.

Female after surgery, and transsexual until then work for me until we get something better. I think I'm okay with every viewpoint captured here...

I do agree. Transsexed is a much better term than both. Both transgender and transsexual has its flaws. For me, I pick the lesser of the two misdefined words as I say I changed my gender presentation. My sexuality has always stayed the same so I am not going to use transsexual when describing myself. My sexual attraction is pansexual so i chose not to use transsexual either.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 11, 2011, 11:30:04 AM
Why bother arguing, it is pointless. You totally misunderstood my statement.

If i misread your post then you need to reword it better. When two of us respond that you are being quite presumptious then it is not us who misread your post but it is you who did not word it properly.

And yes, I have read your other posts....i know what your stand is against the label. I've seen this argument from you on a many of occasions.

You like "transsexual" and that's awesome but don't put down other labels or think its inferior. Transgender is here to stay and no crusade will change it.

I'm done in this thread. Ive had my fair share of seeing how ugly people can be with labels.  Oh, and I removed "Sweetheart" since I know how much you do not like labels.

Emma, it is a good thread. No shame in it for it to be locked.

Oh, and Valerie, nice try with the me assuming I bash post op women and baiting me into the whole "I bash post op women because I do not use the word transsexual" because it wont work with me (or did I read that wrong too?).  I am having my surgery in less than 40 days and I will still use the label "Transgender" after my surgery and I currently know MANY women who are post op who agrees with me that the label police is so 1990s.

Or will my opinions only be valid after 40 days and after the surgery?  Nope.

No shame, just no prevalent forming opinion. Plus, people were kind of hesitant to answer the poll. I can put it all back together, but it seems like it's more of the same difference in individual opinion.

Locking this topic at Emma's request.