Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 09:47:56 PM

Identity is an individual thing, yes. But total disregard of those who have been through all the fires of transition and are rightfully elders is just wrong. Perspective changes through transition. Please be aware of and give thought to that.

I agree.

But I do feel many people here disregard what I have been through in my transition or they act like I haven't transitioned at all, I'm a person "playing dress up" or who knows what they think. Given some of the VERY hostile/rude responses a few people have made, they clearly have no concept of what my life is like. I honestly feel like I am on the other side of transition now as I'm living and accepted as a women where I live but because I am not post-op, some people act like I have no experience or understand of what going through transition is. Please be aware that some non-ops have gone though every step of transition post-ops have gone through other than scheduling -that- surgery and having -that- done.

Quote from: Stephe on September 10, 2011, 11:11:46 PM
I agree.

But I do feel many people here disregard what I have been through in my transition or they act like I haven't transitioned at all, I'm a person "playing dress up" or who knows what they think. Given some of the VERY hostile/rude responses a few people have made, they clearly have no concept of what my life is like. I honestly feel like I am on the other side of transition now as I'm living and accepted as a women where I live but because I am not post-op, some people act like I have no experience or understand of what going through transition is. Please be aware that some non-ops have gone though every step of transition post-ops have gone through other than scheduling -that- surgery and having -that- done.

I feel for you - imagine how disregarded you could be if you are TS and choose to not transition at all.   In the end it doesn't matter what other's think - just what keeps you sane.  Treating your GID effectively should be the focus, not doing what people say the "right" way to treat it is for fear you will be invalidated.  If it works for you, go with it!

My experience is similar to Stephe's.  If I could live full time as a woman, without surgery, I would.  I am now considering an orchi mostly so I can cut my drug usage.  FFS and social acceptance is far more important to me than having a vagina.  Unfortunately, I often get the feeling that it is a matter of "them" vrs "us" on this board.  People love to be accepted by groups that have some sort of hurdle.  Jesus said, " everyone is a sinner." [note, I'm not a Christian]  Yet religious groups single out gays and any trans variant.  Why?  Because it makes them feel special, superior.  They can avoid introspection and the realization of their own sins and shortcomings.  Just by saying, "I may be a sinner, but at least I'm not one of them!" I have wondered if at least some of the people who have expressed superiority over TGs and cross dressers are just responding to this human need to feel "superior?"  After a life being put down themselves, how pleasant to find a weaker group to pick, prod, and humiliate.  Especially if by doing so one can build up their own sense of self worth.  Sorry if this pisses a few people off, but it is how I see it.   

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 11, 2011, 11:53:52 AM
Our differences come in with the standards of care that has a path for transitioning, that is all.

I've had to follow pretty much the same path; going to therapy to get on HRT, (standards of care apply), dealing with coming out, name change, dealing with family and friends, job/employment issues, figuring out my look, finding my voice, dealing with ignorant people, learning the finer points of being a women, electrolysis, in my case saving up the money and finding a surgeon I trust and recovering from that etc etc..

Am I leaving something out? Oh and by living full time I was also doing the RLE you did, just that there is no genital surgery at the end of it. Actually done several years of RLE now And maybe I didn't have to spend as much time/money in professional therapy convincing a shrink I should be allowed to do all this, given I don't need the letters for SRS.

I'm just trying to figure out what the big difference in my transition was from a post-ops. Maybe I'm not seeing something obvious?

I think of us as all being rather the same.  We experience dysphoria and we take steps to relieve it.  Some of us have dysphoria worse than others.  Some of us take more steps in its treatment.

Lets take some people I know personally who experience gender dysphoria and use a system to illustrate their experience:

Person A
gender dysphoria - intense (non-suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - living full time, hormones, SRS

Person B
gender dysphoria - intense (suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - living full time, hormones, no SRS

Person C
gender dysphoria - intense (suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - MTF living as male, SRS

Person D
gender dysphoria - moderate (non-suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - living full time, hormones, SRS

Person E
gender dysphoria - light (non-suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - living part time, no SRS

Person F
gender dysphoria - intense (suicidal)
steps taken to relieve it - androgynous lifestyle, hormones, orchi

(if you guessed the last one is me, you are correct)

In each of these cases we have people dealing with varying degrees of gender dysphoria.  They have each differed in how they treated it but it seems to work for each person.  All this should tell us is that our treatments need to be personalized to our experience and not necessarily use a one-size-fits-all mentality.  We are far more similar than we are different.

Someone who has SRS likely felt the need for SRS to properly treat their dysphoria.  Someone who won't get SRS doesn't feel it is necessary to treat their dysphoria.  Neither has a more valid condition than the other - they have the SAME condition - gender dysphoria! 

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 09:47:56 PM
It is hard for me to let this go, I'm sorry. I think this is one of the things that many post-op women have such a hard time with. It is the ease in which experience is disregarded, portrayed as having little value that is a contributor to alot of hurt. The throwing away of elder wisdom.

One of the things that drew me to susans in the early days were the people that had made it to the other side of the tunnel when I couldn't even see the light at the end of it.  Their perspective, example, and the spark of happiness I saw in them that I didn't see in most other people dealing with GID inspired me to hold on.  The value of the hope they gave me is immeasurable and it more than likely saved my life.  So I appreciate every person that has made it to the other side and reaches back.  Every time susans loses one of these people, and there have been so many, it weakens the quality of support this site offers as a whole.

Valerie, I want to say that I love having you here.  I have always loved your posts and I love the spirit behind them.  Your perspective on the debate topics is great to have.  The practical advice you give to people going through certain stages of transition has helped many people.  I love that you stick to your beliefs without inflaming people almost all of the time.  It would be a loss if you ever went away or were driven away.

So there.

Regarding this topic, I think it's easy to want to be reductionist, but that always runs the risk of oversimplification.  I do agree with Interalia that GID is something that sets us apart in one group, but there are other things that set the people within that group apart.  Often arguments about umbrellas are really about how big of an umbrella should we be using.  Also the politics of medical vs. psychological play into it, which is really where I see that maybe yes there is a hard line that can be drawn between pre/post ops and non ops.  I am not convinced that doing so is a good thing, but I see why some people would want to.

I recently met a guy, and he said that I should not have to clean the penis. you could just make orchiectomy. "In any case, because nothing has changed, he says, - those who thinks you're a girl you would take for a girl with or without the member and who is nicknamed" pederast "(do not know, so to speak in English, it is gay), and will be considered. " I think he's right. I thought about just orchiectomy appeared only after the op. It was not very successful, and I regret that I decided to take it. My option would be: castration, and increased testicular hormone replacement therapy. And then would be documents and change. I do not think non-op girls worse than post-op. I would so like herself, but it turned out how it happened ...

With Interalia all the way on this.

All the separatist, divisive and sectarian stuff is well dated and detrimental to the vast majority be that in regards to Trans issues or anything else for that matter.

Look where it all ends: Northern Ireland, Rwanda, Sunni vs Shia, antisemitism, racism, segregation, apartheid, hanging of Gays, Islamophobia, takfiris and much more.

I have the parts. I have thought about getting rid of them since my early childhood. I am still not sure in what camp I am or if they will stay there. All forums have so many experiences I can relate to. That alone makes me not care too much about the divides. And for me there is a huge mental part. There is the possibility if have a freak accident tomorrow and the parts would have to removed. That happens to people who totally love their parts.  That would not cure anything or fix all the issues for me.

Quote from: Valeriedances on September 10, 2011, 09:41:33 AM
There are many posts in the post-op section where people say their GID/transsexualism is cured.

Will be interested after your surgery how you feel about your GID.

I for one, after my surgery am cured.  I really don't even think about it.  Feels good.  Before when i was pre-op i wouldn't think about till i had to use the bathroom or change to take a shower, but now... Soothing relief.

O.O What have i done, start thread last week , take a break over weekend 37 replies...

Hot button topic

Quote from: Jen on September 13, 2011, 12:17:56 AM
Hot button topic

Slightly .  Axelle made an important point, for her the perspective might change after SRS. That follows, given I have found Axelle to be one of the most insightful and honest minds on Susan's (I'm sure there are more, and remember, I said one of the most... ), some things change. But perspective changes, the issue doesn't.

Quote from: Jen on September 13, 2011, 12:17:56 AM
Hot button topic

I think it's a topic that could be discussed without throwing insults at other people. Asking people to clarify their post or asking someone their opinion shouldn't be taken as a personal insult. I'm sure some people might still not understand exactly how I feel and I have no problem discussing that.

It's when the "You are not a real _____ like I am" statements are thrown that things get ugly.. Or "You don't need _____ to be happy like I do". I honestly hope I never get to a point where I forget where I came from and turn into the type of person who was hostile and abusive to me during my early transition.. Or like the closet gays who tell ->-bleeped-<- jokes to seem "normal"..

And the other point some of these people don't seem to get is these same type arguments are still used by some people out in the real world against them. Or maybe they do and are just reflecting those hateful thoughts and comments onto another group of people. Some sort of "No, that's not me you are talking about, that's _______ people"?

Whatever the case, it's hateful but isn't likely to stop anytime soon sadly.

Round 3 already! Looks like this may go the distance unless the Mods step in with a TKO.

Everyone's life is different. I transitioned M2F in 1993, lived full time for over a year, and later re-transitioned due to various extenuating circumstances. For me it's more important to live as a woman socially than to have surgery, and there is the difference I see between non op and post op. Perhaps that will change someday for me, and if so, I will follow my path wherever it needs to go. I currently manage GID by simply accepting who I am internally, regardless of how I must live externally.

Z

    Can't we all just get along? I mean it's hard enough being transgendered so why do we have to fight amongst each other? I think what it really comes down to is money, i'm sure that if given the chance 90% or more of the people here would get surgery if they had the cash to do so. I don't think it's that big of a deal though, i mean i DO want the surgery but do i need it to feel like a woman or to feel my transition is over? - No

Its all fun and games till someone loses an eye.

Quote from: Forever21Chic on September 13, 2011, 08:32:22 PM
i'm sure that if given the chance 90% or more of the people here would get surgery if they had the cash to do so.

Or if they are medically able to or there was zero risk with surgery, no risk of complications etc etc. I can agree if there was a magic pill we could take that would make you 100% female, most of us would take it.

What I feel it boils down to is people should deal with the parts of themselves they -hate- first, whatever that may be. At some point when you have checked enough hate items off the list, you will feel "cured" and whatever is left isn't a focal point of your life anymore.

I only take issue with those who seek to invalidate a non-op's identity based on their specific physical source of dysphoria.  I find it astounding that I have come across this mindset so frequently amongst those who should know better from experience.  Instead, they direct the same revulsion, lack of acceptance, and insensitivity towards their peers that one might expect from an ignorant religious extremist.

This isn't something I have seen much here, but it definitely exists.  Just google "non-op transsexual" and see what you get.  It's depressing.