Quote from: tekla on September 13, 2011, 08:06:51 PM
but they're not a functional democracy

Unlike, say...US?  That's funny.

When there is a Department of Vice and Virtue in America that goes around beating people for frivolous "moral" offenses (like, say, homosexuality) during the day and spend the nights taking baseball bats to devices citizens use to communicate with the outside world, you can make a comments of moral equivalence.

Quote from: tekla on September 13, 2011, 08:31:18 PM
And more people vote for American Idol than the American President.

Sometimes I think that is a sad statistic...but then I see interviews of people on the street lining up for money from "Obama's stash," people who cannot differentiate Australia from North Korea on a map, or people that do not know what we are supposed to be celebrating on Independence Day, and I can't help but think that TOO MANY people take part in elections that should really just stay home and watch American Idol.

you can make a comments of moral equivalence
I wasn't making a claim of moral equivalence, I was making a claim of political relativism, if not political reality.

And that is one of the saddest thoughts.
Perhaps, I mean it's the standard way to view that fact.  But the other way to view it is that all those people who don't vote, don't do so because they are fine with things as they are.  In part it's The Who singing "meet the new boss, same as the old boss" and in an other way it's a whole lot like Al Stewart singing, "oh the more it changes, the more it stays the same, and the hand just rearranges the players in the game." 

We've got people in this country, on this site even, who think Obama is some sort of Left Wing, Commie, Socialist, Fascist (and don't try to tell them that you can't be all those things, that's way over their head) who is doing nothing, but simultaneously doing so much he's destroying the country.  While the reality is that Obama is going to go down in history (at least so far) as the best Republican President since Ike.  The Dem's moved to the right and became Eisenhower Pubs back in the 90s, while the Pubs moved into the insane asylum.  Currently the Republican Primary resembles a slap fight in a House of Tards (when people routinely use a phrase like "Bat->-bleeped-<- Crazy" to describe your people, you're in trouble) and it's highly unlikely that any of them are going to be in a position to win against Obama who can employ both a Rose Garden Strategy (highly successful) and the almost BILLION dollars he has in his campaign fund to pretty much obliterate them come a year from November.

The totally weird way we elect the President (who is not elected by popular vote, but by a system that I swear those guys thought up on an acid trip - and they were tripping balls at that) means that our one 'national' election (and the President is the only office in the US that is based on a national vote) is in fact a very, very, very small, and scattered, regional election.  Most of the places in the US are not subject to 'the campaign' at all.  If you live in SF or NYC you'll never see a candidate (unless they are trolling for money) and barely - if ever - see an ad.  Because there is no way that SF or NYC is going to go red (vote Republican), and no way that some places in the Old South are going to go blue no matter who is running, so there is no need to waste time/resources there.  So it's really fought out in Florida, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan and a few others the poll people tell them are 'up for grabs.'  If you are unlucky enough to live in those places the advertising will be saturation wall-to-wall.

The only thing that could really change that is if the Republicans stop drinking the Kool-Aid long enough to realize that they consistently alienate the one group that could help them win, and that's the Hispanic vote.  Because, as it turns out in reality, the average Hispanic American has traditional family values on an everyday basis that are far more traditional than the "Traditional Family Values" advocates have. But the R's have a basic core of racism (like the Pacific Ocean has a basic core of 'wetness') and it blinds them from seeing that.  So they go on doing things like they are now, having a huge Deerp Fest over building a wall on the Southern border, (while claiming to worship Reagan for saying 'tear down that wall') and English as a National Language^*, and there is not a single Hispanic person who does not see all that talk about a wall as "No Mexicans Need Apply."  And they stay away from the Republicans in droves.

Hell, it's highly likely that one of those nut-bars (Palin, Bachmann, Paul) will go off the reservation and run as a third party, in which case Obama would not need to campaign at all.


* - I once had someone who was red in the face screaming at me that English should be the only language allowed in California.  So I asked him, "Then what are we going to call California then?"  I thought he was going to explode.  Still, I think its a valid question to ask someone who is living in Los Angeles don't you think?

This is not my meant to be rude or offensive but I really don't understand where things are going with the US.

9/11 was an abomination without a shadow of doubt but why go and invade countries, kill probably a million people including many women and children and perpetuate the the horrendous situation in Palestine by unilaterally vetoing justice at the UN?

I'll be open here, I'm Muslim and you're welcome to condemn, despise or hate me for that if you so wish. What's causing all this insanity isn't Islam, it isn't Arabs or Pakistanis or anyone else. All this Islamophobic rhetoric and nonsense is beginning to sound like 1930's Germany and we know what that led to.

I have here in front of me right now a hadith (reported saying of the Prophet) very much pertinent to my last sentence. It reads as follows:

Abd' Allah bin Amar bin al-Aas reported Allah's Messenger Muhammad (pbuh), as saying:

"My people (Ummah) will undergo and experience all those conditions which were suffered by the Children of Israel in a manner of resemblance in which a shoe of a pair resembles the other shoe."

There's a warning to us there, just today I read the brain addled rantings of some 'armageddon' fool right here on this very forum about nuclear attacks, flattening the holy sites and then all the oil will be ours. Please tell us what are we to think when we read such s**t on a what is a Transgender site (Susan's own definition, scroll to top of page) of all places. Has the world gone mad?

Peace to all, may God have mercy on us and guide us to a saner world.

Brain addled ranting fool here! Isn't that a personal attack?

Yes, and frankly after what you wrote it is the least you can expect. This site is no place for promoting hate.

Go right ahead and report it, you're more than welcome to do so.

9/11 was an abomination without a shadow of doubt but why go and invade countries, kill probably a million people including many women and children

No, 9-11 was a pretext, it gave us the reason to do something that sooner or later we were going to do anyway.  Why?  They are sitting on the oil that's why.  Oil is finite.  We use it ever faster and at ever higher levels.  And since it's made from the bones of dinosaurs (amoung other things) it's not very likely there is going to be any more made soon.   And industrial nations need oil like a junkie needs junk, and will pretty much act the same way about it.

Check out this group, paying careful attention to all the members listed at the end.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_a_New_American_Century

Then read the report here:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

We were in grave danger before 9-11, grave, grave danger.  Peace almost broke out. 

Come on Mimpi, everybody is entitled to an opinion. I do not think that Tracey deserved the insult.

I find this thread fascinating exactly for the variety of opinons. I think the problem is not with the USA, reps, or demos, but it is a global problem. It is the "growing pains" of a band of anthropids whose technical leaps were not paralled by concomitant itsasociological advances.

It is only when we will be running out water, food, and energy -about 2040-2060 that the humans of earth will change. If not we will perish.

Jen61

No insults are intended Mimpi, I think virtually everyone agrees that Osama Bin Laden was about as Islamic as a ham sandwich and a bottle of beer. 

Where a lot of people have a problem is scenes of people dancing in the streets of cities in the Middle East, on hearing the news of 9/11, and saying their argument is with the US Govt, not the people.
When the TV news shows large anti-Al Qaida demonstrations on the streets of the M.E. , then people will accept that there is no double standard being displayed.

The odd statement  handed out  by a moderate cleric won't do it.

Karen.

I think virtually everyone agrees that Osama Bin Laden was about as Islamic as a ham sandwich and a bottle of beer

Oh no you don't.  He's as much a part of Islam as Falwell, Baker, the "god hates ->-bleeped-<-s" church, and Jimmy Swaggart, and the Inquisition, and the witch hunts, and the Crusades were all very much a part of Christianity.  You let the responsible parties off the hook, and you shouldn't.  Islam should have taken care of him themselves - just like all the 'good Christians' need to get up, stand up against all the hate their brethren are spouting.  Had Islam done so they might not be under military occupation or staring down the barrel of a gun. 

There is a saying in the US (well among some people) to the effect that the 99% of cops who are on the take and/or brutal psychopaths with ego problems give the rest a bad name.

*Fastens seat belt*

Hey people lets be respectful to each other.

Cindy

It's already a rough ride.  We've spent $1.29 trillion on the two wars, then there is the human cost.

- Troops in Iraq - Total 44,000 U.S. troops as of June 30, 2011. All other nations have withdrawn their troops.
- U.S. Troop Casualties - 4,477 US troops; 98% male. 91% non-officers; 82% active duty, 11% National Guard; 74% Caucasian, 9% African-American, 11% Latino. 19% killed by non-hostile causes. 54% of US casualties were under 25 years old. 72% were from the US Army
- Non-U.S. Troop Casualties - Total 316, with 179 from the UK
- US Troops Wounded - 32,175 as of June 30, 2011, 20% of which are serious brain or spinal injuries. (Total excludes psychological injuries.)
-US Troops with Serious Mental Health Problems - 30% of US troops develop serious mental health problems within 3 to 4 months of returning home

Civilian deaths in Iraq from violence since we showed up, between 102, 417 to 111,928 depending on who's numbers you want to take.  About 2,412 or so civilian deaths in Afghanistan, often from 'friendly fire' or poorly targeted weapons.

But hey, you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs right?

And no USA politician with a war wound.

What a terrible waste of life and what a terrible misery for those wounded.  I look after a brain injured partner, and it affects everyone in her family. The human tragedy is incalculable.

Cindy

I think that about does it... and with that I'm off to bed.