So as most folks know, I have two specific and very equal goals: to physically and emotionally identify as a woman as opposed a man, and to be beautiful.

My identity of being a woman is something that I feel is innate; I displayed all the signs as a toddler and child, I've never once participated in anything manly, and I like men. (I also like to strut, I love long curly hair and make-up, I love female outfits, ect ect) And for what it's worth, my identity of being beautiful is strongly sparked by years of severe bullying and abuse from my family and peers about my Acromegalic facial appearance, spine deformities, and skin diseases, and because of the fact I am an actor and it is my professional business to be aesthetically pleasing.

However, does anyone here think that these two things are the product of wanting to be a woman in the first place? I do associate beauty with being a woman, I've always thought, ever since the age of 4, that beauty is for women, that women deserve, and cannot operate without, beauty. I've always watched the pretty girls around me in school become popular and romantically liked with ease, just because they were pretty (while the ugly girls were always geeky losers.) Prettiness is always symbolic with being cute and cuddly, it's a ingrained part of humanity that has been proven by every study across the Earth, just like the color Pink.

I personally just believe that it's all a product of wanting to be a woman, and that my journey to beauty is equal to becoming a woman because it'd make me look like a woman and operate like a woman's physical personality, flirt, sensitivity, and touch (I am not interested in being a grumpy librarian hag, I'm not even 30 yet!) but many seem to believe that beauty is totally separate from womanhood, that only body surgeries matter in the world of Transsexualism (despite that the face holds scientific sex characteristics proven by percentage and study.) As well, I do associate beauty with facial female traits, I would not call, say, Robert Pattison, beautiful, so I do mean female gender traits when I say "beautiful."

What do ya'll think?

I have the same goals, but do not necessarily think them as separate. This is mainly due to them being part of the same plan.

It's like looking at a pile of wood and deciding to build a dog house. Do you see yourself building a dog house first then making it pretty, or do you have an overall vision you are seeking to achieve? Or is that final product the focus? Again, for me it's the latter.

I know that people look at beauty differently.  All I know is, if you are a beautiful woman to look at, but have no substance, That is not beauty.  I do have a girlfriend that is MTF.  Not a beauty by most folks standing, but given her heart, her being, she is the most beautiful person i have ever met.  I look at her and I see beauty!  I look at her, and I see everything!

I think that any girl wants to be beautiful, even a grumpy librarian hag
I included want to be a beautiful girl and I think that I have always seen myself as a beutiful girl or think that I would sooner or later become one, for me the later came too late, I think that I will not be ugly but I think the beauty train for me has left, it reminds me of a poem I heard a long time ago.--
When I was young and full of hope
I washed my face with ivory soap
but now I grown, I've no more hope
I wash my face with any kind of soap 
Beauty on the outside will fade eventually but the beauty on the inside is longer lasting.
Good luck on your quest, aloha.

Jennie

I have goals similar to yours, but they blend into one: I want to be a beautiful boy.

Just here to muddle things up a touch by saying that while the desire for beauty and the desire for womanhood may be the same goal, one of the two halves of the goal could be half of another goal, or a goal unto itself. I guess. Does that make sense?

So in answer to the title of this thread: yes. It is one thing or two.

Beauty is in the mind of the beholder .

womanhood is a kind of beauty in itself. i'd rather see imperfections in a woman's body than in her soul, for true beauty shines through her skin while an ugly soul will make a perfect body look like a fake plastic shell

Quote from: RhinoP on September 16, 2011, 02:34:06 PM
but many seem to believe that beauty is totally separate from womanhood, that only body surgeries matter in the world of Transsexualism (despite that the face holds scientific sex characteristics proven by percentage and study.)

I think a lot of this has to do with how you define "Woman".

For some people the ONLY thing that defines this is -do you have an innie or an outtie between your legs-. For me BEING a woman is living and being accepted as a woman. I want to be attractive, every women does, but I'm OK with being a old lady or whatever, as long as I'm a woman. For me my face was MUCH more important to me than what's between my legs. Having GRS but still have a face that says "I'm still a guy" would have solved NOTHING for me. Getting my voice right is my next goal, again ahead of GRS. On my list of priorities, GRS is much further down than it is for others.. At some point it might be -the only thing left- and I would consider it? Not sure.

One thing I do find interesting is how many transpeople are really obsessed with "I want to be beautiful or forget it" attitude. If I had to be a hag librarian woman or a very attractive man, I would pick the hag librarian in a heartbeat, no question about it.

Why the binary thinking? There is more than "beautiful" and "ugly". Go watch some Dove commercials.

I think part of being a woman is a desire to be beautiful, but I think everyone wants to be attractive, whether that is as a boy or as a girl. Attractive people of both genders get more positive attention.
I don't think your desire to be beautiful is necessarily connected to your desire to be a woman. If you just admired beauty, you could stay a man and enjoy looking at beautiful women. If you wanted to be beautiful you could stay a man and become a "pretty boy" and wear makeup and dress in pretty clothes while still maintaining a gay male identity.
However I don't believe both of your goals are equally attainable. You can be entirely successful at living as a woman, but being beautiful is a matter of genetics. You can look at celebrity women who have had everything possible done to them to make them as attractive as possible but they could not attain what most people consider beauty, like Greta Van Susteren and Wynonna Judd.
Most people that I know who have had body surgeries have also had many things done to their face prior to the body surgery, so I don't think most people think of the body surgery as the most important thing - it is usually just the last step in a long process.
I guess what I am trying to say is that if you just want to be a woman so you can be beautiful, you should understand that you might not be able to achieve the level of beauty you desire. You can be as feminine as you want, wear beautiful clothes, style your hair, wear makeup, flirt and strut, and as long as it is enough that you feel beautiful, you will be fine. But if you feel that you need some kind of assurance from others than you are beautiful, you might not get that.
Many women have had to accept the fact that they are not beautiful so it is not true that women can't operate without beauty. We don't always get everything we want so we have to accept that and make the best of what we have.

Personally, I dress like a boy as we speak because of the fact my craniofacial state is so extremely masculine, that I always feel like I look like a monster in women's clothing, a freak, and it makes me cry every single time I try. I feel loads better dressing as a boy because it, by some extent, somehow makes my face, to me, look less manly and more "in line". It's a comfort thing, and while dressing as a boy, I at least try to dress semi-attractively. I dress as a boy because, as a result of dressing like a boy and causing my natal body and face to "align" with a clothing style, instead of being "contradictory", it actually makes me feel "equilateral", which actually causes me to feel more female than I do in women's clothing. Anyone ever feel this way?

It's why I want FFS. I want to feel equilateral in women's clothing and hairstyles, which to me, is the ultimate form of physical confidence and representation of who I am. I want to feel womanly in women's clothing! To me, the most ugly looks are those that contradict and do not match, I believe beauty is in finding an overall equilateral vision; it's a concept studied in art and fashion. I'm tired of wearing baggy boy clothes to achieve this equality, I want to finally change my face instead, not having to conform to male clothing anymore just to achieve the a vision of flow and naturalness. I do have to admit that if I was a woman with a troublesome face or body that caused me the same issue, I'd be one of the natal women who get lipo and plastic surgery. Not interested in being an ugly man or an ugly woman, really!

And it's because at the end of the day, I want a relationship, I want friends with alike fashion and social interests, I've dreamed all my life of becoming an actress (especially in the 25+ film projects that I'm writing, directing, producing, scoring, and editing myself), and I dream of a public image. Many women have had to accept being ugly, but many of those women are, indeed, old librarians. I've never seen womanhood as that type of image because, quite frankly, I'm younger than 30 . I still have so much life to lead, and naturally, I picture myself being youthful and bright, on top of being female. I've never even been in a relationship! I have a lot that sort of indeed requires physical appearance, it isn't a concept I can escape from... I don't think anyone can possibly forget physical image and even sexual desires until they reach 50. Maybe being a woman has social/sexual/career/beauty connections for me, but what natal girl doesn't think that way?

Also, I'm a plastic surgery consultant, I've had plastic surgery, I run my own plastic surgery forums, and I've studied both FFS and normal plastic surgery for years. I believe to know what's scientifically possible in terms of beauty for my face  . It's more about reducing the masculine components and leaving it with an overall canvass that is more acceptable to being influenced by make-up, hairstyles, and clothing. Again, it's about finding an equilateral vision, and reducing masculine components is possible on just about any human face that presents those problems. There's really no such thing as a face that can't be improved, if the case really requires it. I know exactly what type of brow reduction I need (there's different forms), I even already have my x-rays to present. My brow really is my biggest concern, followed by a small nasal touch-up and either filler or hormone therapy for my lumpy chin. I'm really not chasing anything extreme, I'm very conservative in that department. I'm not even seeking jaw/chin reduction, I like my lower face. It's really mainly my stupid brow.

I consider myself a girl, but I don't think anything I do or enjoy could be considered feminine. However, I don't think conforming to stereotypes makes me any less of a girl.

Also, I think anyone wants to be beautiful, regardless of gender.

What I hate, is most therapists and psychiatrists have it in their head (and I don't know where in the world they heard it) that anyone besides natal females who worry about their appearance must have BDD. For them, this includes straight males, gays, Transpeople, and anyone else who was not strictly born with a vagina, or is not already pretty. Even dermatologists, family care-givers, and endocrinologists have this mindset, all at least where I'm from.

So I've had to fight a lot of discrimination, and quit going to therapy all-together (sacrificing my Letter) to prove that it is entirely natural for Transpeople and non-Transpeople to want cosmetic improvements, even if it's surgery. Like I mentioned, I've been a plastic surgery consultant for around 4 years, I've consulted and guided thousands of patients and surgeons alike, I've written dozens of articles on the subject, I've studied thousands of before and after cases, and I run and administrated several plastic surgery forums myself. I know all about the subject way more than a psychiatric professional who does not learn about the possibilities and positive effects of plastic surgery in any college coarse or textbook that I know of (and many are even taught against it for religious-based reasons.)

To me, looking "beautiful" (aka having enough female features to the point I can put on a beautiful outfit and it truly look female, passing, and pretty) is part of being a girl, it's part of my career, it's part of my relationship life, and it's, most of all, part of my confidence. 85% of the human population under age 30 feels this exact same way, and wether it's a mental disorder or not (the DSM says it's not), it's a disorder that healthily rules the majority of the human population. Where this comes in with Transpeople, is that many therapists are wrongly taught (and the DSM indeed says something about this) that Transpeople who are interested in beauty and physical improvement are not real Trans and are wanting womenhood for a beauty obsession and not the identity. Well, I'm sorry to tell the professionals, but beauty is the biggest part of being a woman, most natal women out there vouch for that in a second, especially the successful and happy natal women. It doesn't make sense that those two things should be separated; does every MTF have to be a "tomboy" to be a true Trans or something?

Actually, it seems that most therapists think MTF's have to dress like a librarian out of a 1985 Trans-bar/club who tends to a garden and works at Goodwill. Whatever type of personality and look that doesn't require facial surgery to look "okay" seems to be what the professionals like best; my recent therapist even told me that I should just get a wig with bangs instead of a brow reduction and anti-androgens; I hate bangs, they're so ugly! Wigs aren't much better! This isn't 1965, surgery and meds have come a long way! A brow reduction and hormone therapy would make me look like a girl, I have had bangs before and they just make me look more masculine, as I have a very wide lower face.

Quote from: RhinoP on September 19, 2011, 11:35:29 AM
What I hate, is most therapists and psychiatrists have it in their head (and I don't know where in the world they heard it) that anyone besides natal females who worry about their appearance must have BDD. For them, this includes straight males, gays, Transpeople, and anyone else who was not strictly born with a vagina, or is not already pretty. Even dermatologists, family care-givers, and endocrinologists have this mindset, all at least where I'm from.

So I've had to fight a lot of discrimination, and quit going to therapy all-together (sacrificing my Letter) to prove that it is entirely natural for Transpeople and non-Transpeople to want cosmetic improvements, even if it's surgery. Like I mentioned, I've been a plastic surgery consultant for around 4 years, I've consulted and guided thousands of patients and surgeons alike, I've written dozens of articles on the subject, I've studied thousands of before and after cases, and I run and administrated several plastic surgery forums myself. I know all about the subject way more than a psychiatric professional who does not learn about the possibilities and positive effects of plastic surgery in any college coarse or textbook that I know of (and many are even taught against it for religious-based reasons.)

To me, looking "beautiful" (aka having enough female features to the point I can put on a beautiful outfit and it truly look female, passing, and pretty) is part of being a girl, it's part of my career, it's part of my relationship life, and it's, most of all, part of my confidence. 85% of the human population under age 30 feels this exact same way, and wether it's a mental disorder or not (the DSM says it's not), it's a disorder that healthily rules the majority of the human population. Where this comes in with Transpeople, is that many therapists are wrongly taught (and the DSM indeed says something about this) that Transpeople who are interested in beauty and physical improvement are not real Trans and are wanting womenhood for a beauty obsession and not the identity. Well, I'm sorry to tell the professionals, but beauty is the biggest part of being a woman, most natal women out there vouch for that in a second, especially the successful and happy natal women. It doesn't make sense that those two things should be separated; does every MTF have to be a "tomboy" to be a true Trans or something?

Actually, it seems that most therapists think MTF's have to dress like a librarian out of a 1985 Trans-bar/club who tends to a garden and works at Goodwill. Whatever type of personality and look that doesn't require facial surgery to look "okay" seems to be what the professionals like best; my recent therapist even told me that I should just get a wig with bangs instead of a brow reduction and anti-androgens; I hate bangs, they're so ugly! Wigs aren't much better! This isn't 1965, surgery and meds have come a long way! A brow reduction and hormone therapy would make me look like a girl, I have had bangs before and they just make me look more masculine, as I have a very wide lower face.

I know what you mean about BDD. I belong to a BDD forum and I think a lot of the people on there have been convinced they have BDD just because they don't like the way they look. The therapists tell them that they shouldn't have plastic surgery until they cure the BDD, but in a lot of cases, if they had the plastic surgery, they would feel better about their looks and wouldn't be considered to have BDD anymore. Another group of these people have been told that they should just learn to accept how they look and not care what other people think.
It is good that you know exactly what plastic surgery will do for you. I used to work for a plastic surgeon but it was a long time ago, and although there were dramatic improvements for a lot of people, I was under the impression that some things can't be fixed. For example, if you have a wide nose, I don't know how much they can do for that. Even if they could narrow it all the way down, then I suspect that your eyes would look too far apart.
An observation that I have made over the years is that the men who decide to live as women, whether or not they have surgery, make a greater effort than most natal females to look feminine, both in their makeup and clothes. It is like they appreciate their femininity more because they don't take it for granted. I think there is a confidence issue as well - natal women don't have to prove they are women so they aren't afraid to act tomboyish, but a MTF is afraid that they won't be treated like a woman unless they have the makeup and clothes. I don't think any of them go out of their way to dress like a librarian. I think a lot of these people would live as women whether or not they could be beautiful. The beauty is a secondary consideration for them; they enjoy living as women. Beauty is nice but not essential. To you, the beauty is essential. According to what I have heard from you, if you could not achieve the beauty, you wouldn't live as a woman. You seem certain that you can achieve both, so go for it.