Sorry for the title,

I cannot at the moment live %100 as Cindy I'm close and I will not go into then details why. But when I'm in 'male' mode I now I have increasing troubles being accepted as a guy. Which is fine by me. But I seem to get more hostility from testosterone fuelled children when I'm in guy mode than I ever get when I'm me.

Why?

What is it that makes male people aggressive to people who are 70/30 or whatever. 

Do guys who are FtM get this from XY-males?

What is the threat? I'm not in anyway a threat to males wanting females. I'm no competition that needs to be removed.

I'm not interested in males that young so  why the hostility?

Just a thought.

And please sensible discussion.

Cindy

I've experienced something like this all my life (since I've spent it trying to "pass" as a man, but giving off ambiguous signals). My theory is that people, and especially children/teens (which means many adults too, since many of those never get past being children/teens!) are trying to establish an identity for themselves. They line themselves up against everyone else they meet, and say "am I like them or not like them?" Hence gangs, and fashions, and all the rest of it. But when they encounter someone who doesn't readily fit into an official box, it unsettles their own sense of who they are, and that feels threatening, so they just get angry. Or if they're in company, they don't want the people they're with to associate them with you, so they come out against you. It's all pretty animal stuff, I think.

I was on a train a couple of years ago and saw a young trans woman (or cross dresser, I'm not sure) leave the train, and then a bunch of teen boys sit down in the same seats, and make a huge fuss about not wanting to sit in the same seat she'd been sitting on - making sure she heard this as she left the train. I'm still angry with myself for not saying something to them, but I was too scared. And I'll bet each one of them, on his own, would have been much more open about the whole thing.

Dear Cindy

I think it's because people simply want to put everything in boxes, it belongs to this or that part of that.
Maybe they can not place you and that makes them nervous.

They don't know how to react, hostility is the most simple reaction, with hostility you  can also show to others that you're a straight guy/girl.
Most times they aren't, but is there a certain fear to admit that.

It's a pity, because if they should open their minds and hearts they could see a lovely person.

Hey,  look at my signature, they are even more simple than I am.

hugs sweetie
Annette

Padma
Thanks as ever. I also know how you felt on the train.


Sorry got a potential S

I'll get back later

Cindy

I considered putting my hair in a Yankees cap, some tight jeans, a rainbow bracelet, bright pink chucks, and a button up girl cut plaid shirt with a white wife beater underneath...But wearing minimal makeup and hitting Badlands. My old watering hole and SF's premier gay bar.

How would the men react? I always wondered if I could get into bath houses now that I have a B cup. But of course, why would I want to? Why would I want to be part of the old ways?

I've accepted the fact that I am no longer gonna dress male or masculine. The surge of hormones have rewired my brain and changed my perspective on virtually everything.

Truth is, times have changed. Gay men who knew me before now use their "hetero" voices around me. Much to my chagrin, they no longer put on their "flamboyant" personas because to them I am another girl and I think a lot of them sense there is something different. They still have to maintain a different level of assimulation around me that they couldn't before. Even if I dress and act like them, I am not them anymore.

I'd love to have a little fun though.

From the comments so far, is it jealousy? Male pride seems to be a very fragile thing and male sexuality seems to be needed to be bolstered with alcohol and fantasy. is there a right of passage for young males?

And I'm not talking about Mr Gorgeous who loves his wife and children.

Cindy

I notice that I get mixed reactions, but most often folks seem to see me as a tomboyish woman or rather just an average girl for the area I live in... Most gals here only dress up for church and work or special occasion

Jeans and whatever tend to be the norm for daily wear... I tend to get treated like a lady most of the time regardless of what I wear... The only people that really give me a bad time are folks that knew me before... But most of them seem to be giving in also

Basically, I have a difficult time passing for a guy anymore

Hi . Cindy.

Okay i have some advange, & yet disadvange,

& i did things in a way that people would know what to expect , & im not advocating others do this , & yet i was given far more than if i had done nothing ,
I had many people do thing's for me ,
I was asked to do my story  for two T V  stations ,Papers & the net . nation wide. so many people knew with in hours my background who i was . am & all about what we were doing all on the line, my history. there for every one to read & see,

People did not have to understand every detail just knowing who i was what i had done & why was enough to be accepted . first as a person . & 2 nd as a woman tho intersexed. i have more friends over the last 4 years that i have ever had over 60 years of my life. & yes that includes quite a few men .

I went over to Thailand & met many neat people over 100. been to Austraila & met many i make friends  pretty much were ever i go. & if i dont know people i soon become friends, i talk with strangers im a all out going woman with a attitude of  , if i dont know you i; soon will ,   i talk i invite people in to my life kids Moms & Dads with kids at parks it does not matter where. most   people love talking ,

i ask them about them selfs of cause they hear a bit about my self or they may know who i am from the media & come over to me .
Put your self in those peoples shoe;s what would you do. or like to do. its about being friendly,

the many groups im involved in number in the 1000's & then im infront of many more . Iv allso talked to many 100's of people .

So it's how you present your self its not the clothes tho that is a part of it its how you get on with people how you interact with them, to gain acceptance you join groups be a part of do things with them .

For my self im different & i expect people to ....look ... at me. i dont blend in nor do i try. my head wear in my pic shows that,
For those of you who wont to blend in then dress as  most women do , nicly a bit of make up. a nice hair style & just be like other women .

Many young males in groups are wonting to show off no matter wether your a woman natal  trans or other.  by them selfs theres nothing to brag about, , women well us any way we just walk on by & give no heed ,

Many people who do notice a difference male's  will sometimes comment to thier partners or friends iv had that . i just smile  & carry on doing what ever.

It comes down to two things these males are insecure in them selfs not confident in who they are as people , growing up not really understanding them selfs & things going on in thier  bodys .

& may  be you.  have you self confindence in your self are you showing off your lack of being strong enough to have the strength  to be who you should be,

My disadvange is my facial looks every thing else is as a woman.in that im to mascline ,& yet even that is not a big issue,

I have acceptance from many 1000;s of people because they have accepted because they wont to. you have to put your self out there.  no use hideing it gets ya down,

...noeleena...

I dont know how others see me, I tend to ignore the general public. But, When I took my Son to see Transformers: Dark of the moon, I had to use the men's restroom. I think I was 3 months into HRT. Anyway, I got in there and I almost had a panic attack. It was like I went into the wrong bathroom and it was full of guys. So I walked out and waited until it was empty.

I have a job interview on Friday and it is going to have to be in male mode (only a short term contract to help my finances).  After a year effectively living in female mode 95% of the time, it is going to be extremely weird putting on a shirt and tie.  Looking in the mirror, it is going to be difficult and I suspect I will look at bit odd.  My transition is apparent to me when in male clothes and no make up.  I am actually getting anxiety pangs about returning to male mode even though this will only be part time.  I feel I am not being true to myself and I am taking a step backwards.  I feel I am on a tightrope and I risk falling off, I have made three steps forwards andf now I am taking a step back.  It is not comfortable.

I dont normaly get any problems going out as a male at the moment but at the weekends I put on my nail varnish & refuse to take it off to go out to the shops.

I often get stares or s->-bleeped-<-s when people notice it & sometimes when queing for checkouts I notice people shuffling away from me as if i'm a plague carrier or smirking.
I think a large part of this is because people are an insecure bunch of animals, when they see something that doesnt fit their preconceptions they get uncomfortable, in older people this results in manners being thrown out of the window & in younger people (the most insecure portion of society) this manifests itself in hostility.
When dealing with a group of young animals (sorry, I meant people) it only takes one to comment & the whole group will join in because anyone not joining in with the group risks being singled out & ridiculed.

Quote from: Jane on September 18, 2011, 07:11:57 AM
I dont normaly get any problems going out as a male at the moment but at the weekends I put on my nail varnish & refuse to take it off to go out to the shops.

I often get stares or s->-bleeped-<-s when people notice it & sometimes when queing for checkouts I notice people shuffling away from me as if i'm a plague carrier or smirking.
I think a large part of this is because people are an insecure bunch of animals, when they see something that doesnt fit their preconceptions they get uncomfortable, in older people this results in manners being thrown out of the window & in younger people (the most insecure portion of society) this manifests itself in hostility.
When dealing with a group of young animals (sorry, I meant people) it only takes one to comment & the whole group will join in because anyone not joining in with the group risks being singled out & ridiculed.

''


Jane

I think that is where I was coming from. Why does this happen?

Are these ->-bleeped-<-s rude to everyone, so in fact I'm not in a minority, there are just a lot of young guys who have no idea how to be respectful in public? Who do they hope to date?

Mmm

I'm angry, so I will go to bed with Steve, , my  sex charged pillow.

He knows I'm hormonal. And still loves me


Cindy , yawn

When out in female mode a few months ago I got some agro from a group of teenagers, one of them shouted out "any chance of a bj?"
I pinched a response i'd seen on here "with an attitude like that you'd only get a bj if you learn yoga" this reversed the situation as the ridicule shifted from me to him, his friends turned their attention to him as he failed to think of a response.
Maybe he'll think twice before trying to publicly humiliate a complete stranger in the future

I too like Padma's response, especially since it's so positive. Though would anyone seriously expect anything else from Padma? 

I'm perhaps a bit more cynical. I think its sexual. I think men see me as a potential conquest, available later. But for now, they will just assert themselves, so I know who's boss. Every man who has ever raped or sexually asaulted me has always started off by being over assertive in this way.

I've also noticed that these types of men, most don't become physically abusive incidently, tend to be a lot more hostile when they have an audience. I take this as them expressing personal shame and guilt over what they are really thinking. This is reinforced by my observation that, when these men are with women, the women might be a little taunting toward me or they may show some passive sympathy, afterwards. But rarely do they say anything to the man for his behaviour.

I tend to think the reason children be hostile is that they might see me as a threat or an easy one to attack. This will be especially true of children who've been sexually assaulted themselves. Though I should add that I rarely get much trouble from children.

Older children, especially boys are just learning that queers are bad and have to be destroyed. Generally their fathers and other significant adults will have transfered their own fears of homosexuality by this time. Every parent seems to want their son to be an alpha.

Personally, I try my best never to react. Even walk away. If the hostility was a feature of the male positioning challange, then this would make them more agressive. I have found it usually results in them losing interest. If my theory is correct then my ignoring them may be see by them as a knock back, whcih they accept. Equally, if I reacted, it might be seen as a come-on.

It's a basic mechanic, all humans have it, some of us are just intelligent enough to dismiss it and use our brains. While some are able to dismiss it in some situations, but not in other situations.
People react to the new and unknown with fear and/or hostility. What we are subjected to is not any different from racism.
They are slaves to the reptile brain, and as such they will also believe that they get higher status from harrassing or violating us, and other reptiles do give it to them, as they fear getting the same treatment.

Quote from: Cindy JamesDo guys who are FtM get this from XY-males?

I wish I could contribute with my experiences, but I've been pretty isolated from people for the last 6 years, and I didn't even get out so much before that either.

But personally, I've been getting crap for so many things in life that I don't differentiate it. I've been harassed for being the quiet type, for being the descendant of immigrated grandparents, for liking different kind of music, for dressing differently, for being an atheist, for having depression, for being nerdy, for not being feminine enough, or not being masculine enough. You name it.

You are a classy woman from all I can tell, but if you weren't, you might have been getting attitude from women. They may not smack you down on the floor and rape you, but the hostility is there.

Sometimes we just can't ever "be enough" as people.

Today my girlfriend and I were at a gas station in town and a woman walked in that I clocked as mtf. She would have passed to me totally if I hadn't been paying attention. But she was tall, and the cowboy hat drew my attention.

My girlfriend noticed too and instantly got all weird. She's been okay with me and my transition but MTFs freak her out for some reason. I think it has something to do with one of her friends who I've always wondered about =P (that was a bad joke...)

Anyway my girlfriend was acting all weird and I couldn't get her to calm down. In the area we live, there aren't too many transpeople. She kept asking me about her and she couldn't shut up about it. I wanted to leave the woman in peace.

My girlfriend made fun of her the whole way home! I finally had enough of it and looked her in the eyes and said "you'll say those things about her and you don't even know her and yet somehow you can manage to keep your mouth shut about me?"

She got mad at me for that, but I had a point. We talked about it a while later and she told me she was acting like that because she didn't understand it.


So maybe those pesky young genetic males who keep harassing everyone just need to be informed? Maybe if they understood?

Idk.

In my book, well adjusted 'happy within themselves' individuals don't harass or get intimidated by others who are different, so basically they have the problem. I can usually overlook teens because they generally have a short attention span and if not confronted by the person being ridiculed, will forget about it, so no eye contact or aggressive looks or it will give them an excuse to attack. 

Once out of their teens and they still have the same attitude, well, there's no hope really, they will spread their hatred every chance they get, some even sound obsessed.  Wives/gfs of these guys should wonder why it bothers them so. 

In my opinion people react the way the do for several reasons..

1- Teens and young adults can be immature. For some reason they get their jollies by making fun of, ridiculing, or getting violent. They don't even have to have a reason to bully or abuse someone. Learned that firsthand all throughout my school years and young adult years.

2- People are scared of what they don't understand and when someone is different in appearance or thoughts they become uncomfortable. It shows in their nervousness, so nervous they become agitated, and then they lash out verbally or physically at whatever or whoever caused them the discomfort in the first place.

3- Peoples faith and religion can cause them to lash out because their doctrine and teaching tells the ->-bleeped-<- in any form is wrong. Which usually ends up in some finger pointing, false accusations, and judgmental words.

4- Some people are just cruel.

5- Some of the people that lash out us may have transgendered feelings themselves but are in denial or are very angry they were born this way.   

Whatever the reasons are we must always be aware of our surroundings when going out in transgender and not take chances. Park in well lit areas, don't take alleys where people can hide. Don't go walking into a biker bar and expect to be treated like a lady...ect...Many trans-people have been killed for simply doing nothing more than being themselves. ->-bleeped-<- and Transsexualism have come a long way over the years and people like Chaz Bono have brought it to the forefront.  And hopefully one day society will accept us as we educate the public. But right now it is still very dangerous for us when we step beyond our doors in our true gender. And we always have to use common sense when out and about because unfortunately there will always be haters and those who will never accept us. I know that is sad, but it is the truth....Huggsss...Katrina

Thank you for perceptive replies, and Jasper you must have been quite upset.

I was in fact wanting to know how people are treated when they present in their wrong ID. I have never had a problem when I'm out as Cindy, the only times I have had problems is if I go out in boy mode. I realise that is odd and the obvious answer is well don't, if you pass you pass and grow up girl. But there are issues that prevent that and are complicated. I get rude remarks and gestures when I'm in boy mode, mainly from teen boys, sometimes teen girls. And occasionally from homophobic adult males who seem to be fat and brainless. When I'm out as me I have rarely had a negative comment or gesture. At worst I'm deliberately ignored. But 99% of the time I'm treated as any other woman.

Cindy 

Quote from: Padma on September 18, 2011, 03:58:47 AM
I've experienced something like this all my life (since I've spent it trying to "pass" as a man, but giving off ambiguous signals). My theory is that people, and especially children/teens (which means many adults too, since many of those never get past being children/teens!) are trying to establish an identity for themselves. They line themselves up against everyone else they meet, and say "am I like them or not like them?" Hence gangs, and fashions, and all the rest of it. But when they encounter someone who doesn't readily fit into an official box, it unsettles their own sense of who they are, and that feels threatening, so they just get angry. Or if they're in company, they don't want the people they're with to associate them with you, so they come out against you. It's all pretty animal stuff, I think.

I was on a train a couple of years ago and saw a young trans woman (or cross dresser, I'm not sure) leave the train, and then a bunch of teen boys sit down in the same seats, and make a huge fuss about not wanting to sit in the same seat she'd been sitting on - making sure she heard this as she left the train. I'm still angry with myself for not saying something to them, but I was too scared. And I'll bet each one of them, on his own, would have been much more open about the whole thing.

Pretty much the same here, always been hassled for being perceived Gay which wasn't the case. In my experience, which doesn't include the US, the danger is away from the big cities in small provincial towns were norms are more rigid and difference ill accepted. I live in a high crime area which is very culturally and ethnically mixed and despite its reputation don't feel threatened at all. Of course teenage gangs can be dangerous but they can be avoided as can most trouble.

Any problems I've ever encountered have been from men. One needs to remember that from a psychological perspective the male persona is fragile and vulnerable and this is the true cause of most violence, not just violence against LGBT people. Being a man isn't easy and many men fear their masculinity being questioned or slipping and when this occurs they can and do lash out both verbally and physically.