The only thing the Libby trial and verdict has really done is further unravel the protective layers covering VP Cheny, exposing him to the elements of truth. A year ago I predicted Cheney would step down due to health reasons. We see that process being set up with his ticker and his blood clot. I believe by the end of this year Cheney will have moved out and Rice will step up.
We have never had a better opportunity to impeach this "president". On the heels of failure and death, corruption and scandal, lies and deceptions, indictments and convictions, a VP ready to step aside allowing the weakling Congress to continue to do nothing while Cheney avoids charges....IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!

Awesome!!!  I'm all for it.

Melissa

I wholly agree with everyone and I hate to be the fly in the ointment.  After several steps originating in the House impeachment takes a simple majority vote before the Article of Impeachment can be sent to the Senate for trial (presided over by the Chief Justice (Roberts).  However conviction would take a 2/3 majority vote in the Senate and, while Impeachment itself might make it through the House, it would never make it through the Senate.  After all, that would leave Cheney as President but at his age and with his health, it would put Nancy Pelosi next in line until a Vice-President could be confirmed.  No Republican is going to take the chance that Pelosi could end up in the White House, no matter how much they dislike the President's policies.

But we can dream can't we. 
Bev

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 06, 2007, 03:06:01 PM
I wholly agree with everyone and I hate to be the fly in the ointment.  After several steps originating in the House impeachment takes a simple majority vote before the Article of Impeachment can be sent to the Senate for trial (presided over by the Chief Justice (Roberts).  However conviction would take a 2/3 majority vote in the Senate and, while Impeachment itself might make it through the House, it would never make it through the Senate.  After all, that would leave Cheney as President but at his age and with his health, it would put Nancy Pelosi next in line until a Vice-President could be confirmed.  No Republican is going to take the chance that Pelosi could end up in the White House, no matter how much they dislike the President's policies.

But we can dream can't we. 
Bev

that is for a Congressional impeachment...it is my understanding there is an "impeachment by the people" - part of what NM is doing and some others. I will try to get more info for ya all as my signal allows.

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 06, 2007, 03:12:13 PM
it is my understanding there is an "impeachment by the people" -

That may be only on a state level and might be what is known in some areas as a recall.  If there is anything other than Congressional impeachment on the Federal level, I must have slept through it in my college classes.  Which is entirely possible since I was working midnights and going to school iduring the day. 

Bev

Clinton was impeached but it didnt take him or his administration out of office. What would we gain by impeaching Bush other than satisfaction?

Quote from: Lori on March 06, 2007, 04:46:03 PM
Clinton was impeached but it didnt take him or his administration out of office. What would we gain by impeaching Bush other than satisfaction?

My point exactly.  Clinton was impeached by the House but not convicted by the Senate.  Had 2/3 of the Senators voted to convict, he would have been removed from office and Gore sworn in as President.  No matter by what method any Articles of Impeachment were brought forth, the Senate would still have to hold a trial and they would never vote to convict Dubya.  Even some Democrats would have a problem with that.

Bev

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 06, 2007, 04:43:29 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 06, 2007, 03:12:13 PM
it is my understanding there is an "impeachment by the people" -

That may be only on a state level and might be what is known in some areas as a recall.  If there is anything other than Congressional impeachment on the Federal level, I must have slept through it in my college classes.  Which is entirely possible since I was working midnights and going to school iduring the day. 

Bev

there are a couple ways to initiate impeachment and yes one begins at the state level...here is the ltest from NM

QuoteNew Mexico Impeachment Update - 3/6/2007

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://mothermedia.org /

Mother Media Advisory - For Immediate Release
Contact: Leland Lehrman (505) 982-3609

NM Impeachment Resolution in Solid 5-1 Victory in Senate Judiciary
Committee - Floor Vote Imminent

In what may be a national first, a State-initiated impeachment
resolution against the President and Vice-President of the United
States has reached the floor of a State Senate. Drawing support from
hundreds of supremely dedicated citizens willing to wait hours on both
weekends and weekdays for the opportunity to speak, the five Democrats
present on the New Mexico Senate Judiciary Committee, voted in favor
without doubt or hesitation. No audience member spoke against.

Former Congresswoman Liz Holtzman's expert witness testimony appeared
via videotape and was enormously influential due to her standing as a
member of the Judiciary Committee that begain impeachment proceedings
against Richard Nixon.

Senator Rod Adair, the sole Republican willing to answer the charges
made a best effort to deny them, but was ultimately unconvincing.
Predictably citing the now suspect war powers of the Executive Branch
and claiming that the United States is the guardian of the free world
against fascism and totalitarianism, Senator Adair used the propaganda
term Islamofascists to vilify America's opponents in the Middle East
and justify the ongoing wars. No Democrat attempted to refute Senator
Adair's position, but the hour was late and their vote said it all.

The resolution now goes to the Senate floor where the vote is expected
to be close. Majority Leader Michael Sanchez, who controls the floor
schedule, voted solidly without comment for the Resolution in
Judiciary and recently stated to the press that he expects the measure
to pass in a party line vote. However, Democratic Senators John Arthur
Smith and Shannon Robinson have declared their hesitance to vote for
the measure and Senator Tim Jennings and Phil Griego remain
uncommitted. There is some question as to whether or not the vote must
pass with a majority of the Senate (22 yes votes) or a majority of
those present. Authorities on the Rules of the New Mexico Legislature
are working on the question but believe that a majority of those
present will suffice.

It's not going to happen. We need to convict them of war crimes or something. And I don't see that happening either. I find it so amazing that these guys have gotten away with so much for so long and not a finger has been lifted against them. The only thing we've got is Libby who was only convicted of perjury. It might be a start... but I don't see a whole lot behind this particular issue. If there is, there is nothing we can prove. I do think that they should go after Novack though. He did write the story outing Valerie Plaim.

I think that we should go after the real story of manufacturing evidence to create a reason to go to war. For all the lives lost, the expense, the misery... all that has been done because of their wanton acts... they should be tried. All of congress is too weak to pursue it.  The American public isn't ready for it.  We as a collective people don't want it.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 06, 2007, 06:46:17 PM
It's not going to happen. We need to convict them of war crimes or something. And I don't see that happening either. I find it so amazing that these guys have gotten away with so much for so long and not a finger has been lifted against them. The only thing we've got is Libby who was only convicted of perjury. It might be a start... but I don't see a whole lot behind this particular issue. If there is, there is nothing we can prove. I do think that they should go after Novack though. He did write the story outing Valerie Plaim.

I think that we should go after the real story of manufacturing evidence to create a reason to go to war. For all the lives lost, the expense, the misery... all that has been done because of their wanton acts... they should be tried. All of congress is too weak to pursue it.  The American public isn't ready for it.  We as a collective people don't want it.

Cindi

Charges cannot be brought against a sitting president, impeachment has to come before charges.

The Plame case is not over. It is still an open investigation.

Well, we shall see how it goes.  I support impeachment and prosecution. But TWC, I think we are in the minority in this country.  Most people, even those who do not favor the Bush administration, feel that impeachment and prosecution of the president would tear this country apart.  I agree that it would.  But that is what we need.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 06, 2007, 08:20:17 PM
Well, we shall see how it goes.  I support impeachment and prosecution. But TWC, I think we are in the minority in this country.  Most people, even those who do not favor the Bush administration, feel that impeachment and prosecution of the president would tear this country apart.  I agree that it would.  But that is what we need.

Cindi

Ahhh, but Cindi our country is already torn apart. We have not gained ground in uniting, we have continuously divided.
Impeachment for a ->-bleeped-<- but not treason, lies, murder? No way in helly will I allow that to go down in the history books.

OK, after a little research, here's the scoop.  Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution states:
The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment

http://library.thinkquest.org/25185/impeach.htm

So anything done by the states such as what you were referring to in NM is merely symbolic.  I do agree with Cindi about tearing the country apart (yes I know it's divided now but it could get worse).  I remember the furor over the move to impeach Nixon, his resignation and Ford's pardon of him.  The pardon angered so many people.  However in retrospect, it was probably the smartest thing to do as it allowed the country to focus on healing rather than a public trial of a former President.

Bev

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 06, 2007, 09:49:13 PM
OK, after a little research, here's the scoop.  Article 1, Section 2 of the Constitution states:
The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment

http://library.thinkquest.org/25185/impeach.htm

So anything done by the states such as what you were referring to in NM is merely symbolic.  I do agree with Cindi about tearing the country apart (yes I know it's divided now but it could get worse).  I remember the furor over the move to impeach Nixon, his resignation and Ford's pardon of him.  The pardon angered so many people.  However in retrospect, it was probably the smartest thing to do as it allowed the country to focus on healing rather than a public trial of a former President.

Bev

What this "President" and his PNAC administration have done is far greater than what Nixon did. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Libby, and the lot of them need to be tried.

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 06, 2007, 09:54:38 PM
What this "President" and his PNAC administration have done is far greater than what Nixon did. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Libby, and the lot of them need to be tried.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.  WMDs that didn't exist, ties with Al Queda that never existed.  Saddam was an egomaniac and his sons were worse.  They would never have allowed someone with the following of Bin Laden into their country as he would have been a danger to their power base.

I'm simply saying that it (impeachment and trial) won't happen but as I said before, we can dream can't we.

Bev

What I was suggesting above is that things have to get soooo bad that we can unite a major part of the country (like 90 percent) to a common cause.  To get there, it has to be really really bad.

Once people are dying like flies because there is no medical care, people can't afford to buy groceries, you can't find a job for more than minimum wage, you can't see yourself into next week.... that kind of stuff. 

Right now the scales are barely tipped against the war.  That's not enough to oust the current administration.

Cindi

I am in agreement with twc.  I agree that your scenario Cindi would provide a very reasonable chance for a successful impeachment, but the a landslide victory is not required for success.  It's still possible with a good strategy, some very persuasive individuals and a little luck to pull it off anyways.  I think one of the reasons it appears fingers haven't been lifted is because everyone is standing around waiting for everyone else to start doing something.

Melissa

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 06, 2007, 10:31:37 PM

Quote from: togetherwecan on March 06, 2007, 09:54:38 PM
What this "President" and his PNAC administration have done is far greater than what Nixon did. Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Libby, and the lot of them need to be tried.

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree.  WMDs that didn't exist, ties with Al Queda that never existed.  Saddam was an egomaniac and his sons were worse.  They would never have allowed someone with the following of Bin Laden into their country as he would have been a danger to their power base.

I'm simply saying that it (impeachment and trial) won't happen but as I said before, we can dream can't we.

Bev

You can dream, I shall make happen

Things don't happen to people, people happen to things...we CAN make it happen.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 06, 2007, 10:37:30 PM
What I was suggesting above is that things have to get soooo bad that we can unite a major part of the country (like 90 percent) to a common cause.  To get there, it has to be really really bad.

Once people are dying like flies because there is no medical care, people can't afford to buy groceries, you can't find a job for more than minimum wage, you can't see yourself into next week.... that kind of stuff. 

Right now the scales are barely tipped against the war.  That's not enough to oust the current administration.

Cindi

We are nearly there...sigh...just wait and see how it is once we go into Syria/Iran...

Quote from: Melissa on March 06, 2007, 11:02:44 PM
I am in agreement with twc.  I agree that your scenario Cindi would provide a very reasonable chance for a successful impeachment, but the a landslide victory is not required for success.  It's still possible with a good strategy, some very persuasive individuals and a little luck to pull it off anyways.  I think one of the reasons it appears fingers haven't been lifted is because everyone is standing around waiting for everyone else to start doing something.

Melissa

Ding Ding Ding, you win the prize, yesa this is a big big part fo the problem. I don't sit and wring my handa, I do. We all can do.

Quote from: Cindi Jones on March 06, 2007, 10:37:30 PM
Once people are dying like flies because there is no medical care, people can't afford to buy groceries, you can't find a job for more than minimum wage, you can't see yourself into next week.... that kind of stuff. 

You mean we aren't?  I just lost about 10% of my pension on Jan 1 due to having to start paying for my health insurance, plus even more for deductibles and such that we never had before.  But I guess I'm still better off than alot of people.  Most airlines when they enter bankruptcy, the first thing they do is dump their employee pension plan and health insurance.  At least Delta worked to keep the pension and get us a little bit of a break on the cost of the insurance.

QuoteYou can dream, I shall make happen

TWC, if you can tilt that windmill, all I can say is you go girl and I'll be there.

Bev

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on March 06, 2007, 11:32:11 PM
I just lost about 10% of my pension on Jan 1 due to having to start paying for my health insurance, plus even more for deductibles and such that we never had before.  But I guess I'm still better off than alot of people.

This is what I call a Republican Induced Problem.  Republicans are always saying "Yay, we can lower taxes.  We'll cut what you have to pay with taxes".  But then they fail to see where that reduction in taxes would have an impact.  Reasonable budgeting is never implemented.  Eventually, things like state funded medical are dropped as services or the costs for them go way up and people are wondering what happened.  I recently was approached by somebody when I was at a store to sign a petition to reduce taxes.  It would seem like a pretty obvious decision to make because people are always wanting to pay less money.  I refused to sign it because I knew the results that it would entail if it were passed.

Melisssa