Hey everybody,

There was a time of my life when I lived in the Susan's forum - but time marches on. I've done it all, I've transitioned, I've had every surgery you can get, I'm married, I've gone stealth.

But, I was reading the comments on a TS article on HuffPo and I was just floored by remembering how much ignorance is out there. And so, I came here and started reading the forum again. Same song, different day - trouble with SOs, suicidal ideation, trouble passing, etc.

And so, I had to share my perspective about how to deal with the problem what's haunted all of you for your whole lives, just as it haunted me. My advice is non-traditional, but I really think it's the best path. This is tough love advice from someone that's gone through everything you're going through.

1. Work with your therapists. Something I heard constantly when I was as Op here was "There are no therapists in my town." "It won't help me." "I don't think I should have to jump through hoops." 

Here's the truth. Most of us have some serious damage from this psychologically. We're undersocialized, we have anger issues and we need therapy to move on. Beyond that, every bit of professional documentation you can get will help you with the SSA, getting a driver's licence, changing court records and the like. Get a therapist and really do the work.

2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

I once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

4. Get a job So many of us revel in poverty and unemployment. And the economy has collapsed in recent years, which I suspect makes it even worse. But, there is life after transitioning. For myself, I was forced in my late 20s to start a career path I should have started when I was in my early 20s. The clock is ticking. You will have disadvantages, you should get started.

5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
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This is the biggest one. Delusion and excuses go together with TG like peanut butter and jelly. There is an inevitable "Poor me," period when you transition. You will one day look back on your behavior as immature. The secret is, the people that are successful at this push through the hard choices and move on.

"I don't care if I pass. It's other people's problem, not mine."
"My voice skills are fine."
"I can stay in the closet forever."
"I'm too broke to afford a therapist."
"I don't need electrolysis."
"My family won't understand."

I have all of these countless times, when these people were all deluding themselves. Your success is in your own hands. The government won't help you. You friends will only barely understand. Your medical providers will generally know less than you. You are the only person you can count on. Don't sabotage yourself by choosing to beleive things that are not true, and don't wallow in excuses.

Life exists after transition. This thing that's eating you alive right now will always be one of your greatest adventures, but it's not going to be your only one. Move through it. Some of us have the courage to push through, many of us are broken along the way. Your destiny is in your own hands.



so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it

Not for everyone, matter of fact 'normal' can get pretty creepy depending on where you are.

I think Crimsonsky's concepts are reasonable, each person might have to adapt them to their own situation, but they are a starting point.

As for "stealth" some of us want that, we want to blend into society and just live our lives, but that is not everyone, there are those who enjoy the spotlight and want to be out there on the edge drawing attention to themselves and their lives.

Both are ok and really are personal decisions.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 10:40:46 AM

2. Leave the community. Get the support here you need, and get out as soon as you can. There is a vampiric toll that the TG community takes on you. It's like reveling in old wounds.

I once tried dating an FTM, and what I quickly discovered was doubling up on the transgender drama led to a very negative, sad relationship. You are engulfed in drama and negativity every second you spend here - and you have your own battles to fight. Get healthy, and get out.

I disagree with this point. There are those post ops out there who lends a guiding hand to someone just starting to transition. I received very wise and sagely advice from a woman who is post op, married, etc etc and now I am doing the very same thing. If everyone leaves when they are post op, then people who are new to transitioning will be left with only online informational resources...which is nothing compared to an actual person to talk to who has gone through it.

If post ops leave then that is fine and it is their own business but I wouldnt say its like that with all post ops

Quote3. Get FFS It's expensive, it's quite painful. It's worth every penny. FFS is the difference between having a normal life where you can be employed and move on, and getting stuck in limbo. I paid Dr. Siegel in Boston about $70k for my face, and I am so thankful that I did. 

And, wow, was it painful. For a year it was, get a surgery, recover, get another surgery. It took a huge psychological toll on me - but it's also over. Looking back, I think FFS was more important to my mental well being than GRS.

this is subjective too. there are girls who don't need ffs. I never have plans to get it done and there are also girls who just have no desire to get ffs. There is nothing wrong getting ffs if you feel it helps your mental well being but there is also nothing wrong with not getting ffs if it will not make an impact on your life. I know FFS will not make an impact on my life so I do not need to spend the resources to get FFS done.

For me, I can put 70K down on a down payment on a home, have srs, and travel around Europe for the summer. It's all subjective.

Plus, as a professor, I do not and will not have 70 grand to throw down on plastic surgery.

Quote5. Go stealth Don't tell people about your past. Don't have RL transgender friends. Don't post articles about TS issues on FB, though you might feel strongly about it. Again, this is for your own sanity, for your own employment potential, and so you can just be more normal - that's the goal, isn't it? To be like other women? Moving to a new place is a great idea.

I disagree with this too (well, 50/50). There is nothing wrong going stealth. Hell, at work no one knows of my physical birth gender, but at the same time, I have a desire to help out other girls so I have blogs and youtubes. It all depends on the person. For me, it doesn't matter if I am stealth or not. My friends at Seminary knows Im trans. My professors and deans know so it's no biggie for them and it's no biggie for me. My boyfriend knows Im trans too so, for me, i don't need to go stealth in that area.

But for me, I chose when to be stealth and when not to be stealth. And in all honesty, no one is truly stealth. My hiring manager at my part time job at JC Penney's know my physical birth gender because a background check brought up my prior legal name even tho my name and gender marker has been changed for awhile....even on my social security card.

Quote6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition. Generally speaking, the people that transition without families are far more successful than those with families, in my experience. It's drastic how much more successful you will be when you are unfettered by these complications. Maybe it's too late to do anything about this - but if you are reading this before transitioning, PLEASE take this advice.

I disagree with this too (a lot). My family has been so supportive with my transition. They really helped me get through some tough spots. I have 4 brothers and sisters, a mother, a step mother, and they have been very supportive of me. I have even renewed an awesome relationship with my aunt and her two daughters from this transition.

While every scenario is different and families will react differently, saying to dissolve your family is a bad idea if they have been ok with the transformation. And to assume all families will react like yours did is not a good idea either.

I admire your tenacity and conviction but I adhere to an old motto "what works for you may not work for someone else."  Every path is uniquely different and while your advice may have been perfect for you, they may not be compatible for someone else.

Have to say I find the original post unacceptable from a political, ideological and moral perspective.

Reminds me of a British politician's "Get on your bike and find a job" speech.

In the name of God how many people in this world have 70,000 available just like that? Most of the world lives on less than $2.00 a day. We are not all middle class North Americans.

I cannot stress how much I disagree with the opinions expressed.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I disagree with this point. There are those post ops out there who lends a guiding hand to someone just starting to transition. I received very wise and sagely advice from a woman who is post op, married, etc etc and now I am doing the very same thing. If everyone leaves when they are post op, then people who are new to transitioning will be left with only online informational resources...which is nothing compared to an actual person to talk to who has gone through it.

I've spent my time counceling people in the community as well. I actually formed a very close friendship with the mother of someone I used to council here. Her daughter committed suicide, and she went through our emails and contacted me. I do know where you're coming from.

Ultimately, there will be people that stay and help out. But, I think it's better for you to move on. It's not good for you as a person to live and breathe something so painful continually.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
this is subjective too. there are girls who don't need ffs. I never have plans to get it done and there are also girls who just have no desire to get ffs. There is nothing wrong getting ffs if you feel it helps your mental well being but there is also nothing wrong with not getting ffs if it will not make an impact on your life. I know FFS will not make an impact on my life so I do not need to spend the resources to get FFS done.

For me, I can put 70K down on a down payment on a home, have srs, and travel around Europe for the summer. It's all subjective.

Plus, as a professor, I do not and will not have 70 grand to throw down on plastic surgery.

Some of us do fine without FFS. I did well enough to date, to pass and to get a job. But I do even better with it. Honestly, none of us pass perfectly - but those that have had FFS are more successful than those of us that have not. It's as much for yourself as anything else. It helps a lot to look in the mirror and see the right face looking back at you.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I disagree with this too (a lot). My family has been so supportive with my transition. They really helped me get through some tough spots. I have 4 brothers and sisters, a mother, a step mother, and they have been very supportive of me. I have even renewed an awesome relationship with my aunt and her two daughters from this transition.

While every scenario is different and families will react differently, saying to dissolve your family is a bad idea if they have been ok with the transformation. And to assume all families will react like yours did is not a good idea either.

I didn't say leave your family, I said start a family - as in have kids and a SO. Those are horrific complications, in my experience. If you're already done it, you have to push through anyway. But, it's far easier without them.

Quote from: Annah on September 30, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
I admire your tenacity and conviction but I adhere to an old motto "what works for you may not work for someone else."  Every path is uniquely different and while your advice may have been perfect for you, they may not be compatible for someone else.

To quote a friend of mine I met here, it's all well and good to be open minded - but no so much your brain falls out of your head. There are objective ways to gauge success at dealing with this. You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I do realize this is not the only formula. But, generally speaking? This is a solid game plan - especially the no excuses part.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 11:42:00 AM
I've spent my time counceling people in the community as well. I actually formed a very close friendship with the mother of someone I used to council here. Her daughter committed suicide, and she went through our emails and contacted me. I do know where you're coming from.

Ultimately, there will be people that stay and help out. But, I think it's better for you to move on. It's not good for you as a person to live and breathe something so painful continually.

When it comes to helping people out, I pick and chose the battles. Most of my help for others come through youtube and blogs where there is not a whole lot of personal face to face interaction but it is enough for me to help out when and what I can.

I understand about leaving the scene. I'm just saying this isn't necessarily true for everyone.

QuoteSome of us do fine without FFS. I did well enough to date, to pass and to get a job. But I do even better with it. Honestly, none of us pass perfectly - but those that have had FFS are more successful than those of us that have not. It's as much for yourself as anything else. It helps a lot to look in the mirror and see the right face looking back at you.

Well, if you want to get technical about it, not even cis gendered women passes perfectly. Concerning FFS and success, it really varies from person to person. I have never gotten clocked since I transitioned. I haven't had any bad experiences in terms of employment or life in general because I chose not to get FFS. I intern in a church as well as go to Seminary and work part time in a mall. Trust me, I know all about how people perceive you and yes, I do agree that the decision is about oneself more than anything. However, there are those who are fine without FFS.

I am not saying FFS is a bad thing or anything like that. I am just saying there are some who are fine without it. For me, I love what I see in the mirror pre FFS. This is just me.

QuoteI didn't say leave your family, I said start a family - as in have kids and a SO. Those are horrific complications, in my experience. If you're already done it, you have to push through anyway. But, it's far easier without them.

To quote a friend of mine I met here, it's all well and good to be open minded - but no so much your brain falls out of your head. There are objective ways to gauge success at dealing with this. You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I do realize this is not the only formula. But, generally speaking? This is a solid game plan - especially the no excuses part.

I enjoyed reading your versions but I wouldn't say it's a solid game plan. I would say it's a personal insight from someone who has gone through this path.

You can't just declare whatever you do to be successful and call it a day.

I don't know why not, as 'successful' is about as subjective as it gets.  Who's to say for another person what 'successful' constitutes.  I know people who started out doing things that most people would consider 'success' and hated it, so they went off and found other things to do, and in so doing, found their real 'success'.

^^ This is what I'm talking about exactly.

Being gentle and open-minded is great with other people. Do you support other people's choices? Are you tolerant towards others? Do you try to empathize with other people? These are great qualities. But what I'm talking about here is honesty with yourself.

I used to have a TS roommate while I was saving for surgery. She never worked on voice skills, was perpetually depressed, and I literally saw women run out of the restroom when she talked in a booming male voice. Was she successful?

Well, she was unemployed for two years, and took a 75 percent pay cut. But still - being employed is one yard stick. But she scares people to the point of having no friends. And she's deeply angry. Is that successful? If she were being honest with herself, could she work on some things and be happier? Definitely.

Delusion for us is often more attractive than reality. If we are being honest with ourselves, it's the truth. We all have a penchant for it.

There ARE clear measures of success.

I started reading this post, and at first, I thought, "Okay, a bit jaded, but I can see she has a point." But as I got further down, I started wondering, "Is this a joke? Please let this be the kind of eloquent and subtle sarcasm that I'm just too dumb to get." And then when I realized the OP was perfectly serious, I got angry.

Crimsonsky, how the hell does any of this advice make the world a safer, more tolerant place for those of us who cannot, or refuse on moral grounds to, drop $70K on surgery, cut ties with loved ones, viciously exclude people with similar experiences from our lives, and live in fear every day that someone will discover our "horrible" little secret? How does any of this really help, except to make us even more separate than we were to begin with? And why all the condescension? Jesus Christ, not everyone has the resources you do.

I can understand wanting a little emotional distance from the TS community. There's a lot of hurt there and only so much energy to go around trying to help. But I could never, ever live with myself if transitioning "successfully" meant dumping the friends that had helped me figure myself out as a person, especially if they still needed support themselves. And I could never respect someone who dumped me just so they could "pass" better.

Quote from: crimsonsky on September 30, 2011, 12:44:00 PM
^^ This is what I'm talking about exactly.

I used to have a TS roommate while I was saving for surgery. She never worked on voice skills, was perpetually depressed, and I literally saw women run out of the restroom when she talked in a booming male voice. Was she successful?

Well, she was unemployed for two years, and took a 75 percent pay cut. But still - being employed is one yard stick. But she scares people to the point of having no friends. And she's deeply angry. Is that successful? If she were being honest with herself, could she work on some things and be happier? Definitely.

That is a sad story and i can see where you are coming from but i can just as easily give the same success story of trans who did not follow the same line of advices you gave who got through just fine.

I changed my voice but this was a personal choice that I wanted to follow. I wouldn't necessarily contribute it to my success.

You're really judging others, and when you do that, remember you are not defining them, you're not labeling them, you're only labeling and defining yourself.

You people - above all other people - ought to know better than 'one size fits all.'

Well I see and respect both sides, but I'm going with crimsonsky on this one, but I have done a few things differently:

1. Work with your therapists.
My therapist was amazing, but each session I walked in with an agenda.  It's my money and my time, get what you need off your chest and get your answers.  I already have my two letters for SRS in hand, but they are state I can't have surgery until April, per SOC - I totally agree with.

2. Leave the community.
Tough one, but I'm doing that now.  Support group was a complete waste of time and energy, way too many whack jobs that don't have a F(#&ing clue.  Wearing a dress and having a beard - why won't people accept me as a woman!!!  WTF  Did meet some wonderful T-girls, but if we go out in public together, I just outed myself.  Instead I just have them over for dinner.

3. Get FFS
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

4. Get a job
Check - Work three jobs actually....transitioned on the job at all three, nothing but complete support from 500 employees, plus paid short term disability for FFS recovery.  Each company has nothing covering Transgender in their policies.  Companies do not fire assets!!!

5. Go stealth
Beside my current friends, family, coworkers/existing client, doctors, etc - it's not discussed.
Nothing on Facebook
Though I do have a Youtube Channel which is my way of paying forward.
Plus this forum of course

6. If you are TS, do not have a family before you transition.
Agree, sometime it doesn't happen that way.  BTW  Everyone needs therapy in this case, most T-girls are thinking about themselves, so putting the right resources in place for the family is very important in their transition too.

7. Don't allow yourself to wallow in delusion or excuses.
Agree, not that I'm flexible enough, I visualize a good kick in the pant every morning.  Transition is only a small part of my life!  It has also been the best 14 months of my life.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Well I see and respect both sides, but I'm going with crimsonsky on this one, but I have done a few things differently:

3. Get FFS
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

Its not the issue of FFS tha she raised but how she raised it. I am not defending people who piss and moan about FFS. I am defending those who simply do not need FFS but then it comes across that we somehow are missing out on life if we don't spend money to get it done. Or we are missing something that other girls with FFS has achieved. For some, FFS just isn't in our trans roadmap; whether through financial reasons or just the thought that we don't need it.

For me, personally, I feel that it would be a waste of money if I got FFS. Even if it was 5,000 that would be 5,000 I can put somewhere else. I am not bashing those who got FFS. If you feel you need it then by all means get FFS. However, we need to be careful how we look at those who do not get it done.

Quote4. Get a job
Check - Work three jobs actually....transitioned on the job at all three, nothing but complete support from 500 employees, plus paid short term disability for FFS recovery.  Each company has nothing covering Transgender in their policies.  Companies do not fire assets!!!

Yes. A good job is a must...but this goes beyond trans. I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation.

If one wants SRS and therapy covered, they do not necessarily have to have an awesome paying job. For example, a cashier at sears only needs to pay 200 for their SRS surgery and a coke vendor stocker only needs to pay 100 for their SRS.

If SRS is extremely important (I know it is for me) then I would look for jobs you like to do and if you find a company that pays for it then it's a mega bonus.

For me, I picked a School that has it in their student Insurance package. It was one of the decision making factors for me in choosing a graduate school.

I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation

My friend-girls think of it as one part of the Holy Trinity: Is he married?  Is is he gay?  Is he employed?

And I know plenty of guys who think the same way.  No job, no way.

Quote from: tekla on September 30, 2011, 01:34:35 PM
I would label this as a life goal regardless of sexual or gender orientation

My friend-girls think of it as one part of the Holy Trinity: Is he married?  Is is he gay?  Is he employed?

And I know plenty of guys who think the same way.  No job, no way.

yeah. I only date a guy who is either in college or has a job. If they live with their parents and has no job whatsoever, I tend to shy away from that. I would be spending all that time wondering why they aren't doing anything productive.

It's not a social status for me per say. It's more like "why does he still live at home and has no job?" It would be a question that would eat at me.

I get to deal with a lot of people who are independently wealthy - like really, really rich - and they are some of the hardest working people I know.  I recently did a few shows with Peter Frampton.  You know to date he sold 16 million (MILLION) copies of Framption Comes Alive, and that's not counting the number of singles for Do You Feel Like I Do, Baby I Love Your Way, and Show Me the Way.  So why does he need to tour?  He doesn't.  But there he is, playing his ass off, even if he's lost all his hair.  There's Bob Dylan, 70+ years old, still out playing gigs - despite the fact that he's richer than just about anyone, including being one of the largest stockholders in Columbia, and now Sony.  There's Phil and Bob from the Grateful Dead out on tour right now.  Hell any ten of us could retire just on the t-shirt revenues they've made.  Not to mention selling more tickets to more concerts than any artist ever.  And the records, and the books, and the rest of the merch.

DON'T TRUST PEOPLE WHO DON'T WORK HARD AT AN HONEST JOB - they are looking for someone else to do it for them.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Check - best money I ever spent (might change my mind after I get BA or SRS)
I so love when people piss and moan about FFS.  Sorry I have money, but I work three jobs so I can pay for the things I need.  If you can't afford it, not my issue.
Spiegel girl too, but only $38K

Actually, with Spiegel, I think it was only $41k for me. I'm including the BA and GRS with that number. Isn't he just the best? He's a really nice person, and his nurses are super nice too. He sends flowers to all of his patients while they are recovering. I still keep all of my remotes in one of the vases.

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PMCompanies do not fire assets!!!

That's so true. I work in game development now, and my company really appreciates people that know their stuff and make their deadlines. People that are technical enough to learn Unreal, zBrush, Maya tend to be a bit quirky already. ^^

Quote from: jamiejo on September 30, 2011, 01:09:18 PM
Transition is only a small part of my life!  It has also been the best 14 months of my life.

It's a huge relief, that's for sure. But it won't be your only adventure. Getting married, finding a job I'm passionate about, seeing my work get published, getting a house with my husband, taking the puppies to puppy school - these have all been great adventures too. This doesn't have to be your life forever. It's more like a major correction in course.

It's really good to think about what your life will be afterwards. Write down the top three things you're worried about, and throw it out the window - because other difficult things will happen that you didn't plan for.

You sound really cool, btw. ^^

In any case, I'll leave this thread here. Take from it whatever you wish, Susan's crowd - or go on about your merry way. And best of luck. This journey is tough, but it can make you a stronger person.

Phew! I'm glad that you didn't get to #8 and insist that we all get breast augmentation too.

Yeah, we probably got off easy, since those were only the 'top 7' I'm sure there are many many more she could have inflicted on us.