read up on inter-sex conditions then think about this maybe it isnt a mental illness but an inter-sex condition in which the sexual characteristics of the brain dont match the sexual characteristics of the body.

by the way i think there is a lot of internalized transphobia going on with you.

I've definitely thought myself round in circles lots of times on this one! 

When we say 'illness' we most often mean 'affliction' or 'infirmity', 'poor health' or 'sickness,' so I suppose... I suppose whether ->-bleeped-<- is a 'mental illness' or not entirely depends upon how it precisely affects the individual.  If you feel afflicted or debilitated by it, then it's an illness for you. 

In its essence, I guess, it's a characteristic.  One person might be proud or delighted or indifferent to a physical or mental characteristic that is a source of pain, discomfort or distress for another.

It undoubtedly places significant life obstacles in the path of anyone transgender - largely due to the physical and emotional upheaval created by dysphoria, which is in turn in great part due to society's (thankfully *gradually* lessening) discomfort with gender 'transgression'. 

And there's a particular stigma attached to the phrase 'mental illness' that does and perhaps should discourage us from labeling ->-bleeped-<- as such.  Then again, there's the argument that there should be no stigma attached to the phrase 'mental illness.'  I'm in two minds on this one... I suffer from extreme OCD - a characteristic, like ->-bleeped-<-, that places numerous challenges in my path and does often distress and trouble me... and I feel no shame or reluctance to label that as a 'mental illness.'  Then again, my impulse to repeatedly, compulsively and ritualistically repeat actions in response to obsessional thoughts debilitates me completely negatively and unproductively, whereas my ->-bleeped-<- has the potential to be an extremely positive force - there are aspects of it to do with self-realisation, self-expression, bravery, exploration and personal fulfillment that elevate it, for me, far above the category of 'mental illness.'   

I know there are varying and opposed medical theories and opinions on the causes and nature of transsexualism.  But just on a human level, I feel that its nature is fluid and can depend enormously upon the individual and their own attitude towards it (which, in turn, can depend upon many factors, including the individual's environmental circumstances).

To categorically call it an 'illness,' though, is undoubtedly wrong, because this only becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.  If it's viewed universally as an illness, then those with the characteristic will see it as such, those around them - their families, their friends and their doctors - will see it as such, generate unhappiness, obstacles and unpleasantness and it will become nothing but an illness and a trauma.   

Hopefully, at some point in the future, society will be so accepting that there will be no trauma or difficulty when someone realises that their mind and their body are differently gendered - we'll just say, when we realise it, 'I'm transsexual,' and it'll be like discovering you're a Maths genius, or want to be an astronaut, or can roll your tongue or wiggle your ears.  It'll still throw up some challenges - the necessity for hormone therapy and surgery to align body and mind - but these will be nearly painless (mentally), as people will view them to be as obviously logical and necessary as sending a Maths genius to a school for the gifted.  That's the way it should be.  It'll happen, eventually, I like to think.     

Quote from: Thomas. on October 04, 2011, 02:01:37 AM

And I'm really starting to worry because I'm really starting to feel like looking into those things like, where you "fix" the brain. Although I haven't done it yet. Kinda like those camps making gay people straight type of deals. Because I'm just ->-bleeped-<-ing tired of it all, and I'll try anything.

I did an extensive research project junior year of college on so-called "reorientation" camps. Out of 202 people who'd gone through the reorientation regimen, 87% said they were still gay or lesbian. 13% claimed to be "successes," but only 4% said they actually felt straight after the reorientation--- the remaining 9%, after treatment, considered themselves to be asexual.

But hey--- why not? If you're really so desperate to believe that you're the one who's f'ed up, not society, go for it. Let them give you shock treatments every time you think of yourself as a guy. Let them try to warp your brain into the traditional, conservative way of thinking. But don't think that doesn't cause any damage. If mainstream scientists are saying there's a reason we're trans, and it has to do with a physical malfunction, not a mental one, why doubt that? Does it not all but cure dysphoria for a transgendered person to transition? The only people I've seen saying we're all mentally ill are religious fanatics standing on a pillar of mere conjecture... but, as I said, if you're inclined to believe them, go for it.

As for me, I began transition over 5 years ago and have never looked back. I have absolutely no doubt that I am, and always have been, male. People who have things like BDD (Body Dysmorphic Disorder) will fix the "problem", but always have new issues that come to the surface. When transfolk transition, we have one goal in mind: to become who we are inside. We don't fix that and then decide we need a better nose, or that we should be taller. Some of us are mentally ill, but it's separate from gender identity. Mental problems don't have physical cures--- only physical problems do.

This is a debate I have been having, only in terms of finding concise ways to tell people why it should not be called a 'mental illness'. I am studying psychology at the moment, one part of the unit is on Gender. GID has a pretty brief mention. GID, according to the DSM, is diagnosed when the internal gender is incongruous with the individual's genitalia, and no intersex condition is present - AIS (androgen insensitivity syndrome) or CAH (Congenital adrenal hyperplasia) for example.

However, in this book, the only reliable and valid evidence for causes of GID are biological, and as posted before, there are several studies showing that trans individuals have brains similar to their inner sex.

I feel that, if so, this is a type of intersex disorder. Intersex individuals have ambiguous genitalia, sometimes, sex of rearing is incongruous with the individual's internal gender (and in this reply, by internal, in all cases I mean in the mind). Nobody would say that intersex people have a 'mental disorder' because the evidence for their biological mismatch is easily seen. If I could carry a picture of my brain around, with the areas characteristically male shown, how could anyone tell me my GID is a condition of a '->-bleeped-<-ed up mind'. My mind is sound. My body, as it were, is in working order. But my brain doesn't belong in it.

You could put a female brain in this body, if you wanted to, and that would produce a cis-gendered individual. But that wouldn't cure 'me', because 'I' exist in my brain, and you just chucked that out of my body. And that is essentially 'taking a pill to ''cure'' the brain', as you wish.

So GID is an intersex condition, hypothetically. Therefore it does not belong in the DSM.



This is not a mental disorder. Also, incidentally, I'm not ->-bleeped-<-ed up in the head either. I'm fine.  I think you have a lot of issues you need to work through, and good luck with that.

Quote from: Clive on October 04, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
I've definitely thought myself round in circles lots of times on this one! 

When we say 'illness' we most often mean 'affliction' or 'infirmity', 'poor health' or 'sickness,' so I suppose... I suppose whether ->-bleeped-<- is a 'mental illness' or not entirely depends upon how it precisely affects the individual.  If you feel afflicted or debilitated by it, then it's an illness for you. 

In its essence, I guess, it's a characteristic.  One person might be proud or delighted or indifferent to a physical or mental characteristic that is a source of pain, discomfort or distress for another.

This pretty much sums up my thinking.

I forgot to add something.

when I was young I got told the diffrence between handicap and illness was that a handicap or dignosed handicap where manly something you had for a lifetime.
and a illness or mental illness where mainly something you could be cured for.

(of corse this isnt always correctly since there is illness your born with and who never can makes you healthy, and handicap you also can get later in life, ex if you hit your head and turn blind at the age of 50.. but in general it said so)

I won't call me an expert but I really dont belive transexualims is to be cured, I belive its the same as homosexualety, the only sussesfull "cure" is people pretending there been cured.

and to be honest, people dont really want to be cured either, the people who do want it because there not accepted for being who they are and has to go thought alot of mess, but if people where accepting them as they where then it would all be fine.

I didn't read all the replies, my bad.

Bút this morning (!) I actually read that a large majority of the european parlement acutally voted to remove transgender as a mental disease from the new WHO ICD (International Classification of Diseases). Just like homosexuality was removed in 1990.

And I agree, I do not feel there is a fault in my head. I suppose if I'd try to see it like that I would look at nature. Biologically, we're not really helping our race (like homosexuals), so, biologically, something's wrong. Fortunally! We don't have to worry about dying out now do we? Meaning it's not a fault in the 'system' but a mutation so to speak. Mutations are natural, mutations happen. (in this case, I doubt the race won't evolve in something better, but still, nothing wrong with it, right?)

That said, I would never take a pill to make my mind fit my body. If I'd been born in tune with my body, yes, ofcourse, gladly. But now, never. I am who I am, changing my mind would mean losing everything I am. That just scares me.

Quote from: anibioman on October 04, 2011, 04:30:52 PM
read up on inter-sex conditions then think about this maybe it isnt a mental illness but an inter-sex condition in which the sexual characteristics of the brain dont match the sexual characteristics of the body.

by the way i think there is a lot of internalized transphobia going on with you.

Had a pair of fraternal twins in which one child got penis burnt off.  Child was not told and raised as a girl.  When her breasts starting developing from being giving female hormones she told parents she is not a girl.  Parents allowed her to transition to a boy and "he" eventually married a girl.  Imagine this boy was raised as a girl due to an accident at birth and at puberty told parents she is a boy!  Something is wired into our brains before we are born!

I know the man you are talking about, Wendy.

And if I'm not mistaken, this 'girl' wanted to play with his brothers toys and had to go to a therapist who kept telling him 'she' was a girl. There are video tapes of these therapies and they're not something you want to see. Also, he ended up as a husband with a wife and children. (again, if I'm not mistaken) And in the end, it still was all too much for him and he ended up killing himself. It's a terrible story but it definately tells us something how the brain is wired to a certain gender.

I think you're right that the problem is within our heads. Yourself perception and gender identity is all in your head. So how could the problem reside somewhere else? My take on it is really simple. Murphy's law, something went wrong so my brain and body does not match up. Studies show that our gender identity matches our brain structure. FTM's have the brains of cis men. MTF's have the brains of cis women.  Even if it is a mental illness, that doesn't change the reality that I am trans. I don't think it is possible to fix whatever is wrong and become cis. I would take the pill. Even though I would sort of have the feeling that I was betraying myself, if I knew taking the pill would work and bring me comfort then I would take it. After the comfort sets in the betraying feeling would leave. It would be a much easier life.

Money's study of 'John / Joan', that guy actually ended up killing himself in later life. Money believe that sex of rearing was more important to gender development than biological sex. Well his study backfired completely, and pretty much everything he ever did was biased or un-generalisable.

As far as homosexuality not being a part of evolution, it's found outside of humans- but also - from a scientific approach it may be a natural means to stem overpopulation. A species is just as doomed if there are too many of them than if there are too few, a balance of people who will produce offspring to those who are likely not to is healthy in a population as big as ours.

GID though, is probably not evolutionary sound, ha, but is a biological malfunction I guess you would say.

I'm certainly not f'ed in the head.. Over the years I've had 2 psychiatrists conclude that I am quite sane. The first, admittedly had no idea about my gender issues, the second is my current therapist, who, of course, knows all about them. In fact, if I had to be honest, I think my therapist has a hard time with me because I don't have any mental health issues - I'm simply a woman in the wrong body..

As far as taking a pill to fix it? I wouldn't take the kind of pill the OP refers to.. I am who I am, and I feel that having attempted to grow up as a male has given me an interesting perspective on life..

Quote from: Sibila on October 04, 2011, 11:39:57 AM
I honestly dont think I am mad.
The gender of my brain just differs from that of my body... that is all there really is to it.

That you BECOME nearly insane because of this situation... that is a different story.

this.

i work in the mental health field and have encountered many clinicians that don't believe in GID as a mental illness. they'll give someone the diagnosis if necessary for insurance coverage but even in that case there is often other diagnostic criteria that the person meets. i was seeing a therapist for awhile who diagnosed me with an adjustment disorder which i imagine many trans people would meet the criteria for at some point during transition (intense psychosocial stress causing significant impairment in social or occupational functioning).

i know that i'm different but i don't think i'm f'ed in the head. mental illness and 'abnormal' behavior are so arbitrary, anyway... what is considered psychopathological in one society may be revered in another. i'm doing a project on schizophrenia cross-culturally and looking at how some non-western cultures highly honor people with these symptoms and believe they are channeling a higher power through their unusual consciousness. there are also parts of the world that actually conceptualize of gender as existing on a spectrum, in which case we would not be so far out of the norm.

mental illness is defined by culture and those of us in western societies are part of a very categorically driven system. we have created it and we perpetuate it but it can never be absolute.

just wanted to add that profesionals dont think there is anything ->-bleeped-<-ed up in our heads.

straight from the WPATH standards of care:

WPATH released a statement in May 2010 urging the de-psychopathologization of gender
nonconformity worldwide (WPATH Board of Directors, 2010). This statement noted that "the
expression of gender characteristics, including identities, that are not stereotypically associated
with one's assigned sex at birth is a common and culturally-diverse human phenomenon [that]
should not be judged as inherently pathological or negative."

Quote from: Clive on October 04, 2011, 04:38:19 PM
I suffer from extreme OCD   

Oh dear.  How embarrassing.  What I should've said there was, 'I suffer from severe OCD.'  'Extreme OCD' sounds like a reckless televised sport.

Today, on EXTREME OCD, we ritualise underwater in full Victorian diving gear.  Later on, we ritualise HANGING ON A BUNGEE CORD FROM THE EDGE OF THE GRAND CANYON.

The rituals in this program are extremely dangerous and should under no circumstances be attempted at home.

Quote from: Clive on October 06, 2011, 05:41:42 AM
Oh dear.  How embarrassing.  What I should've said there was, 'I suffer from severe OCD.'  'Extreme OCD' sounds like a reckless televised sport.

Today, on EXTREME OCD, we ritualise underwater in full Victorian diving gear.  Later on, we ritualise HANGING ON A BUNGEE CORD FROM THE EDGE OF THE GRAND CANYON.

The rituals in this program are extremely dangerous and should under no circumstances be attempted at home.

Hahahah!!

Quote from: Nathan90 on October 05, 2011, 10:52:49 AM

And I agree, I do not feel there is a fault in my head. I suppose if I'd try to see it like that I would look at nature. Biologically, we're not really helping our race (like homosexuals), so, biologically, something's wrong. Fortunally! We don't have to worry about dying out now do we? Meaning it's not a fault in the 'system' but a mutation so to speak. Mutations are natural, mutations happen. (in this case, I doubt the race won't evolve in something better, but still, nothing wrong with it, right?)

I would disagree about it not being usefull.

I do think there way to many homosexuals in the nature that it is to be a mistake.
I use to see it in this point that homosexuals in the nature having a very good point.
somethimes if a race get to many kids then it can actully be harmfull for the race,
on the other hand I read something with the homosexuals animals about taking care of the other children of the other couples.
that would also be very usefull..

Technically it's not useful for the further evolutions of the race. If some gay guy has amazing strong genes, he wouldn't reproduce.

And I don't see it as a mistake, just a mutation. Which are in fact, minor 'mistakes' (for lack of a better word).

I know about a bird that lives near the sea (forgot which bird, and even if I knew, I wouldn't know the English translation). They have proven that the birds are 'prone' to homosexuality. But in this case, the birds find a mate (same sex) then they go out and have sex with someone from the other sex, they come back together get a kid and raise it. So for them, being gay doesn't change a thing xD

That said, overpopulations is definately a bad thing for a species. So yes, too many kids isn't all to good. But what's even worse is the moment the natural 'survival of the fittest' stops working. As in, overprotecting the weak. At this point, the race won't naturally evolve into something better anymore. Only on the slightest chance of a major catastrophy and one of the weaker ones would be imune but still alive. This would mean the existence of the race, but it would be very unstable and weak.

Now.. I'll be off to have dinner xD

Quote from: Da Monkey on October 04, 2011, 07:39:00 AM
I just don't make it my whole life. There are way worse things in life than being trans.

I find that so many trans people become so obsessed with their dysphoria and social roles and acceptance that they seem to think that their problems are the absolute worst and that no one understands their kind of pain. Ever.

Get over it, who gives a ->-bleeped-<- if it is a mental illness or not. It is what it is, what you do about it is your call.

Yes.

If there was a pill to make me comfortable with a female body? I'd probably take it. I've had good times pretending to be female and I'm sure it'd be enjoyable if it was who I am. Problem just is, I am not female and there is no pill or therapy to fix that.

One of my friends once asked if I had given up on "wanting" to be male because I had a good time for one night while pretending to be female, and if this was just all about me not "having a good time often enough". I wish, but it's not a question who you want to be, it's just who you are and you usually aren't given much choice.

I don't think I am insane.