A couple posts about binding and consequent pain has me thinking (dangerous I know) ....

Granted everyone is different and there are different levels of dysphoria and it's kind of a unique experience how uncomfortable or comfortable one is with their own body.

Many people are planning on getting surgery or have gotten surgery to help get their body more inline with their mind and therefore make them more comfortable which also might equal happiness. That's of course one "route".

But what about if you're not getting surgery any time soon or don't plan to for whatever reason? Is doing something that causes you pain (and potential damage to your body) worth it? Binding might give you a flatter chest, but what's underneath is still there and will be unless they're surgically removed.

All things considered, dysphoria sucks, but does it suck more than potential permanent damage? I notice a lot of guys who bind seem to go to the extreme - like wearing 2 binders at once ... or binding so tight they pass out or can't breathe properly. I truly hate my chest the way it is but I've also got this, self-preservation thing (for lack of a better phrase) going on where the potential to cause damage to my body outweighs the hatred of my moobs.

So, causing yourself pain and discomfort, etc. is that a step towards happiness? Is it possible to be "comfortable" when being so uncomfortable? And what about when the binder comes off - does it all just revert to unhappiness again?

For me personally, I've spent my whole life trying to get "ok" with my body. I've tried a number of different things and nothing seemed to make me happy. And I'm not down for surgery. So I'm still looking for a way to think differently about certain things and just be more comfortable in my own skin and therefore, just be happy with what I have and how I am.

So what's your take? And why?

There are people whose disphoria only grows until it consumes them. They'll go to any lengths to become who they envision themselves to be instead of what they are forced to see in a mirror. Some people think that nothing is too risky when you feel comfortable with yourself when you haven't your entire life.

When I was thirteen I used to get so uncomfortable with myself that I'd take three ACE bandages and wrap them around me so tight that I could barely move. But my chest was flat, so for those ten minutes until I passed out, I was fine. It's gotten less and less extreme over the years because my thoughts on the "transworld" has evened out but I still have my off days.

I see it like this; I don't see the point in trying to slip into a dress. I'm not not feminine, it's not who I am. Likewise, I don't see the point in wearing twenty binders and stuffing my shorts with towels to try to seem more masculine than I look, because that's not who I am either. It goes both ways to me. I'm not sure if anyone else sees it that way though.

> . <;

For me the physical discomfort of wearing a binder is far outweighed by the mental discomfort I experience without one. I'm now actually incapable of leaving the house or being seen by anyone without one on, and if I do decided to take my binder off inside the house I have to wear a jacket to ease my own dislike of my chest.

I'm a step worse though, I won't have any kind of test done bellow the belt because I couldn't stand it, even though my family has a history of cervical cancer (my aunt is terminal as we speak). The fact of the matter is, I'm more comfortable with the idea of getting cancer than I am of puting my legs in stirrups and vacating the building (insane asylum, here I come!) as my brain trickles out my ears.

I do believe if anyone wanted to check me they'd have to knock me out before I'd allow it, and to knock me out they'd have to tie me down because I wouldn't go under voluntarily.

For me...binding doesn't cause me physical pain. Not binding doesn't exactly cause emotional pain, and neither is knowing I have a certain type of chest. Although I'm not 100% comfortable with my chest as it is, I don't know if I would be comfortable with surgery, and having a flat chest.

i actually felt that surgery was necessary to relieve me of the pain that binding was - even though i didn't bind to the point where it hurt (usually), yet it constricted my breathing. and i just had to - had to bind to the point where i felt perfectly flat and when it didn't work i felt really dysphoric about my chest.
yesterday i was looking at an older photo of myself, from when i was still binding, and even though i had a small chest, i can still see something is "off" in those pictures, whereas now i feel healthy and "natural", as in my chest looking the way it's supposed to be.

so for me, surgery was a cure from doing something to myself, rather than surgery itself being something i did to myself. if that makes sense.
but then i'm also lucky, at 3,5 months post op you wouldn't notice i had surgery unless your nose almost touched my nipples.

i had been scared that i would just feel like i had harmed myself, after surgery. i never actually had that feeling afterwards.

I like to believe there's ways around dysphoric feelings without causing yourself physical pain. I guess in that respect I'm an optimist! I do know from personal experience that it seems you are always your own worst critic though. We always seem to hold ourselves to these elevated standards. When I look around at a crowd of people, I see all shapes and sizes of regular men. Some even have "moobs", or hips, or more feminine figures, or barely shave, etc. etc. But it's easy to have an idealized version of what a male body is supposed to look like and then try and hold yourself to it. When I really started paying attention to other people instead of always looking inwards, chastising myself and cursing the universe for giving me the body I have, I realized I was being too hard on myself and other people weren't even noticing the shortcomings I felt I had. Like I said I still hate the moobs but "lightly" binding (doing so in such a way that doesn't cause pain or restrictive breathing, etc. even though it doesn't get me 100% flat) seems to be enough for me. All the permanent damage I did to myself I did long before binders and that was simply slouching in an attempt to make the moobs less noticeable. I've got a permanent slouch now and it's kinda hard to really throw my shoulders back and keep them there.

In trying to look male, I've damaged my breasts. I'm not sure what happened exactly, but they're weird and slack now, and the nipples are numb completely whether I'm currently binding or not.

I also nursed a baby for a year and a half once, which did much the same thing. It did it in different ways (through toughening and stretching etc), but it was damage.

Both things I did because it was the only way for me to be happy, and both behaviors were totally worth it. Only one of them is socially acceptable.

I'm going to bind until I'm able to get surgery.  I do it "right".  I don't bind for excessive periods (some guys only unbind to shower), I wear my binder only when I'm leaving the house or there are people over I don't want to see me unbound.  I've never had pain from binding, other than chafed nipples a few times.  I think it's fine to bind as long as you are aware of your body's signs. 

Quote from: R.A.A on October 12, 2011, 12:39:02 AM
There are people whose disphoria only grows until it consumes them. They'll go to any lengths to become who they envision themselves to be instead of what they are forced to see in a mirror. Some people think that nothing is too risky when you feel comfortable with yourself when you haven't your entire life.

When I was thirteen I used to get so uncomfortable with myself that I'd take three ACE bandages and wrap them around me so tight that I could barely move. But my chest was flat, so for those ten minutes until I passed out, I was fine.

With this part of your reply, I think you just summarized me.

But to the OP, I honestly don't recommend doing the things I've done. I used to wear two binders. I've worn a binder and then ace bandage over it. I've worn three ace bandages at once. I've used belts. I once tried to cut my boobs off. And my upper dysphoria isn't even bad compared to my lower dysphoria.

I'm willing to deal with pain, permanent damage, etc. as long as it means I'm happy. I would go to great lengths to keep myself happy.

When everything comes off, after a bit, I do revert back to mental and emotional discomfort and unhappiness. I literally have to force myself to take off my clothes to take a shower. It sometimes takes a few minutes before I can do it.

The only time I don't bind is when I'm sleeping or in the shower. But I sometimes wear a binder to bed.

Surgery has been something I've been planning before I even knew about transsexualism.

This is going to sound weird, but I used to be able to block out the pain of binding as long as I passed. The minute I met someone and didn't pass, I could feel it. Maybe I paid more attention to it when somebody called me "she". Or maybe I was hyperventilating.

Packing isn't painful. So. I don't have much to say in terms of pain with that.

I've recognized the fact for a long time that I'd rather die than have this body for the rest of my life. So the potential damage means little to nothing to me.

When I was 14 I'd wrap my bare chest in layers of duct tape so tight I could hardly breathe or move comfortably. When I got my first binder at 17, I wore two at once, and honestly it is worth it to me, I wasn't happy, I was just less uncomfortable than when I didn't bind. I don't bind for happiness, I do it because the psychological pain of seeing my chest is much worse than any physical damage I have caused to my chest. And I did cause damage, but I'm okay with it. I know after I get chest surgery it's going to bother me what I did, but right now I honestly couldn't give a rats ass about what the future is, I care about getting through today so there can be a tomorrow.

I think it's interesting that one would not want chest surgery with chest dysphoria, but I could never do it. I'd much rather risk my health and my life, than keep them and try and train my mind to accept them.

I'm honestly surprised no one has brought up the social implications of not binding. I don't have a particular dysphoria surrounding my chest (when it's just me alone, it doesn't bother me at all), but I will not go out in public without binding. Add other people into the mix, and there's no way in hell I'm going unbound until I've had surgery. Currently, my girlfriend is the only person around whom I won't bind, because it feels as if anyone else, even if they've known me forever, would probably see me as some kind of freak if they saw me unbound. Certainly, out in public, I always bind; I can't imagine what risk I'd put myself at if I walked around with my obviously female chest unfettered. There are still hate crimes, and there are still plenty of people who have a big problem with someone being trans. Where I'm living at the moment, I'd say those people are at about 50%.

Top surgery is really not in sight for me right now, but I hope that will change shortly. I'm sick of binding--- and yet the public who are made so "uncomfortable" by us can't let us even use insurance to cover the operations we need in order to blend in. I don't like that I have to bind any time I'm around other people, but in 5+ years, I've pretty much just accepted it.

Quote from: insideontheoutside on October 12, 2011, 12:01:17 AM
So, causing yourself pain and discomfort, etc. is that a step towards happiness? Is it possible to be "comfortable" when being so uncomfortable? And what about when the binder comes off - does it all just revert to unhappiness again?

When I still had 'em, I didn't bind.  OK, I bound a few times (8-hour days) with a presumably properly sized Underworks double-front.  It was enough to discover that, although it got me washboard flat, the binder had enough power to make taking deep breaths difficult.  It made anything that required more oxygen than just walking (running, walking fast up a hill with a backpack) difficult.  I also took measurements before, during, and after binding and found that it decreased my ribcage circumference (kind of obvious result, I guess).  The scary part was that that effect remained for several hours after taking the binder off.  I also noticed a sort of wheezing rattle in my lungs after a while; seemed like fluid build up.  All-in-all, it wasn't worth the risk of damage to me.  The physical discomfort also drew more attention to the fact that I needed to bind, a fact which in itself was mentally detrimental to me.

So my 'binding' method was a tight sports bra and paying more attention to shirts (layers and dark colors provided some camouflage, white or light-colored shirts were a no-go/see-through).  This was reasonably comfortable and I was usually able to forget--or mentally edit out--the fact that I had strange bumps on my chest.  I was fortunate, however, to have very small bumps with only the sports bra which didn't seem to hinder my passing in the eyes of others.

I also second Luc in this: alone, I wasn't a fan of my chest, but I could certainly tolerate going without a sports bra.  I preferred it: more comfortable and even easier to ignore the fact that I had a chest that needed binding.  I was also OK with going around shirtless when alone; I was mostly able to mentally edit out the offending appendages.  However, I absolutely needed to be wearing a sports bra when around other people.  Without it, my chest would have been just obvious enough to others to create problems.  I can edit out as much as I like within my own head, but I had no control over what other people see.

So I guess my solution was one hell of a mental filter, half-effective comfortable binding, and clothes.  What also helped, which probably won't be a solution for you, was looking at my small-ish chest, appreciating its potential for peri-areolar top surgery, and looking forward to the result.  (The last bit was another reason for not binding, because I didn't want to risk messing up my skin elasticity.)

A sports bra works for me, flatten them enough so a lose dark shirt will make them appear not there.  I do wear one about all the time when I am up and have worn one to bed a few times.  I just don't like to see or feel that I have them on  my chest ever. My nipples are too large for a guy and I don't want to ever see them.

for me binding actually even thought its not healthy been the most healthy solution I got so far since puberty.

I wont reject that fact my chest isnt damaged from it it is, but binding is just a part of the damage.

before I bind with binders I always walked in big clothes and it where extremly hot, + I use to bend my bag constantly all the time, I couldnt straighen up normally like other people and it gave me problems with my bag I still have.

then later I use tape which where so painfull it only lasted for a day,
I went over to use bandage insteed and after some years I use bindings and now I star doing the "healthy way of binding, where I dont use it at night and only 1 and so on, I didnt do that in the start. (I dont work out with binders either as I did before)"
---
I will say for me it been a question of health, I got told alot of time not to wear the binder, but the true is my disphobia is to big to do so,
I can accept alot of other facts, like my hips and so, but I hate my chest so much, I dont like the felling of having a boobs, and I dont like to huging people or be around people if I am like that, which back then made me a very unsocial and depressing person who stayed home all day, cutted class, cutted myself, and tried to commite suicide.

and even if binding is not healthy for a long time then it where very helthy compared to bandage and compared to the fact I had bend so much in my back all the time, and stayed home in depression. when I first got my binder on it felt really nice almost like I couldnt feel it where there and I could move my body again.
---------------------
there might be some people who can get over there dihobia but I think if so then I dont see the reason why they should have surgery at all, for me im having surgery because I feel it more healthy to have surgery and be satified than to hide myself and bind myself forever.

I cant walk out without binding it just wont feel good, it might be unhealthy but I dont live forever and I dont expect to be old, I just want to enjoy life as I long I live.

I used ACE in high school it worked really well because back then they were smaller so it could be loose and it didn't hurt. Now they aren't so I use the 983, doesn't hurt except for when it's brand new, then it digs in a little. Even binding, my chest still is somewhat obvious.

Luc brought up some good reasons as to why I bind. Safety being a big part of it. But also I just hate what is attached to me there. I don't want to be comfortable with it because I just want it gone. I'm currently working out a lot to get back to a smaller size because most of it is fat. Either way I plan on surgery as soon as possible.

I take my binder off about 2 hours before bed . Usually means I'm wearing it about 12-14 hours a day, it could be worse. Really yes, I am uncomfortable without it on. The uncomfortableness is worth it because it makes me feel better. I don't care much about what society thinks. I care that I feel like they don't belong there so I don't want them there, ya know?

This is somewhat unrelated, but for the guys who wear sports bras to bind, how do you do it? I even tried a Frog Bra, but all it did was make my chest even more pronounced.

I am a creature of comfort, so I tend to avoid excessive pain. Also, I don't want to do anything that could cause permanent damage to my body because that may make surgery(if I can ever have it) more difficult and riskier. If I have pain when binding, I stop and adjust stuff so that it's positioned in a good way again.

Compression bras and sports bras actually cause me quite a bit of back pain, from the shape I'm guessing, so I stick with my binder (Double Front Compression Shirt). I wear an XS because that's my size, not because I'm trying to be as flat as possible. I use my clothing as a way to help look flat. I only wear my binder a maximum of 16 consecutive hours (getting up until going to bed) and don't wear it when I sleep so that I can give my torso a rest and not make the binder smelly from constant use.
I do wear sports bras on the weekends, though, because my parents think I wear all the time (they don't know I have a binder) and it would look weird if there weren't any in the wash. They make me an alright level of flat. They cover more of my chest (mid-lower ribs to collarbone) than a lot of other sports bras and they're a bit too small for me since I got them when i was 12 years old.

My goal is to be happy, and I will go as far as I need to to work towards that goal until it is met, but I will not take shortcuts. In the long run, shortcuts make the path more difficult and painful than just going slow and steady.

Quote from: Luc on October 13, 2011, 04:56:47 PM
This is somewhat unrelated, but for the guys who wear sports bras to bind, how do you do it? I even tried a Frog Bra, but all it did was make my chest even more pronounced.

In my case, lucky genetics.  I didn't have much tissue volume in my chest, though the odd shape (pointed) made it necessary to wear *something* to keep them from poking out.  It didn't take much just to smash the skin into a more acceptable shape, since there wasn't much underlying firm tissue.  I never tried a Frog Bra, just got cheap cotton/spandex sports bras that were a size or two too small.  I ran into an issue where the actual band size (recalling 38?) that I needed corresponded to sports bras that attempted to have a 'cup size,' which meant extra fabric that would hinder compression.  I tended to buy them around the 32-34 range and sought out the types that had no excess fabric allowance for the chest, which was somewhat difficult: I got the impression that women who are buying sports bras don't want to be smashed entirely flat.  Seriously, look at the extra fabric on the first one; and I know that the second one has extra fabric as well, since I remember having one of those: http://www.bestform.com/sport.html

What these things do is give support and mild compression, but also push things up due to the shaping.  Not cool.  I had the first two pictured on the Bestform site and the extra fabric just wrecked any potential they might have had for compression.  But these worked rather well for me: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Fruit-of-the-Loom-Girls-Assorted-Built-Up-Sport-Bras-3-Pack/14100294.  There is some extra fabric due to pleating of the elastic band, but if the size is very small to the point that the band is entirely stretched out--well, that sort of takes care of the problem.  I don't know how well these would work with larger moob sizes, though; I was maybe an A, if even that...

Quote from: Ender on October 13, 2011, 07:19:59 PM
But these worked rather well for me: http://www.walmart.com/ip/Fruit-of-the-Loom-Girls-Assorted-Built-Up-Sport-Bras-3-Pack/14100294.  There is some extra fabric due to pleating of the elastic band, but if the size is very small to the point that the band is entirely stretched out--well, that sort of takes care of the problem.  I don't know how well these would work with larger moob sizes, though; I was maybe an A, if even that...

I'll have to agree that if you're more than an A and into B those don't work very well. I bought some (because they were cheap) and it definitely still looks like I have full on boobs when I have one on. I even tried buying on a size smaller. Basically the stretchy fabric just doesn't compress.

I should point out that binding doesn't ever cause me physical pain. I have small breasts. My main problem is that I breathe more shallowly when I bind, and I don't think that's healthy.

The numbness, though...I'm aware it's not normal. But binding helps me feel normal. It's worth it. I'd go pretty far to be happy. Damaging body parts I never use and don't want doesn't seem like as much of a problem as damaging my psyche and sense of self.