Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 07:43:09 PM
I guess what many people are saying is that Male To Female has lost its meaning these days? Thats all I'm saying underneath it all.
I make a distinction between identity and the body. A person can be a woman and female inside, there is no disagreement there. I have always felt the same as everyone else there. But there is such a thing as physical transition of the body. There is such a thing as a vagina and a penis. Prior to transition, a person is a woman inside, but their body is not externally. Some argue that point, which is certainly their right. But I have a right to express the physical transition. That a person has a penis which is removed through surgery. That is what I have consistently said the past year.
Maybe the site needs to examine renaming the MTF and FTM forums to something else since this is so controversial. Why have them? Just merge them into one. According to the dissenters, what is MTF and FTM anyway?
Still, that argument suggests that someone who completes transition without surgery isn't "as much of an [identified sex]" as someone who did get surgery. That's not a fair assumption.
I don't think anyone would suggest that you don't have a right to express your happiness with your anatomy. You've transitioned about as far as anyone can and that's great. I'm going to be joining you among the ranks of others who were able to do similarly, and the thought is exciting and wonderful for me. That doesn't mean I'm going to dewomanize someone who isn't able or willing to get SRS (from a MtF perspective), suggestion that someone's body is not a woman's body included.
As much as I find the "physical birth defect" argument distasteful, if you're a man or woman or androgyne or neutrois, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks about your genitals or your breasts or your face or much of anything, it's still - from one's own perspective - a man's body, a woman's body, an androgyne's body, a neutrois body.
I don't think it has anything to do with the MtF or FtM communities or anything regarding the "controversiality" of current trans orthodoxy. If you don't identify as transgender (and, personally, I have problems with the term, so you're not alone), that's your business and nobody should be allowed to dictate to you the terms by which you should call yourself. Of course, by that token, you can't tell people that their bodies aren't women's bodies because they haven't had "the surgery" (which, since for many, it's not "the surgery" because they never get it, and to insinuate it makes them lesser isn't right). It's a matter of not placing indelible labels on a person that doesn't agree with your specific ideas.
I'm not comfortable with a lot of terms that legitimately aren't intended to be used hatefully. "Girl" is one example, but I'm not going to brand someone as bigoted because they don't understand my specific preferences with regards to the labels I choose to appropriate. Likewise, feel free to feel that you are woman foremost, forgoing the terms transgender or trans or trans* or even transsexual, but don't prevent others from having their own labels they apply to themselves, and don't denigrate their choices.
That's really all.
Quote from: Annah on October 14, 2011, 07:57:01 PM
Valerie, there are some trans who are non op who consider themselves just as much a woman as any other trans. And their convictions are just as real and valid as anyone else.
I find it strangely and sadly ironic that some of us can actually point at a non op and say "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" when a VAST majority of the world points their fingers and says the very same thing to you and me and any other trans variant person on this planet.
The days of judging gender identification based on whether they have a penis or a vagina is, thankfully, becoming old news. It's just so condemning and judgmental to base who is a real girl trans and who isn't based on if they had their penis replaced or not and I'm happy to see that trend slowly die out.
My opinion is this. I could care less what is between a persons legs. If that person says they are male or they are female, I am THE LAST person to be judging them or saying that they are wrong. I find it hypocritical to see a transsexual (any transsexual) put gender identity rule sets on another person who has different views than them.
But it's your belief and you are certainly more than happy to have it and cherish it.
I'll keep on fighting for everyone's right to be accepted as who they are and I find labels to be as outdated as the Members Only Jackets that was sold in Sears back in 1983.
This, with annotations.
It's so easy for bigots to change "you're not a real or full woman because you have a penis" to "you're not a real or full woman because you
had a penis". It's good to remember that.
Labels aren't a cool thing, and make sure to mind that while your labels may be valid for you, others may have differing labels and beliefs and everyone should respect them.
