Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:39:49 PM
Truly, you believe the trans community is genderqueer? If that is the case, then perhaps those folks should stop using the MTF forum. Did the MTF definition of Male to Female get changed?

Sigh...

They are still MTF because a Non Op and a Pre ops are still women so if you use Male to Female, then they have gone through the transition of Male to Female.

Most people identify genderqueers as those who are similiar to bi gender or mixing the genders together or not acknowledging one gender or the other. Non Ops and Pre Ops are not genderqueer because Non ops and Pre Ops who identify as women are trans.

Some of us are in a lot of pain over our transitions, and we come here to feel safe with others who understand us. The last thing we need is to have someone here forcing an identity on us.

I know Lily, I'm sorry it has been painful. My transition was painful as well. It took me 4 years to transition. We live a difficult and challenging life.

Good luck on your path. I'm sorry if I caused you any real grief.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 09:44:09 PM
Uh, no.  I believe that people have the right to identify however they want.  So people can identify as male to female even if they don't want or haven't had surgery.  Nobody's "changed the definition" of male to female.

(Also, when did I come close to insinuating that "the trans community" is genderqueer?  I'm actually, literally boggled by that statement.)

Well, my idea of genderqueer is a mixed body, part male, part female. So permanent half or part transition would be cause of a gender queer body. Isnt that logical? Like a bearded lady is an expression of gender queer. I've seen them. So if someone doesnt remove their body parts (for MTF), they are essentially gender queer or variant externally. part female body with a male penis. You would have breasts with a penis. Nothing wrong with that, but it is logically gender queer or gender odd or variant.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 09:56:33 PM
Well, my idea of genderqueer is a mixed body, part male, part female. So half or part transition would be cause of a gender queer body. Isnt that logical? Like a bearded lady is an expression of gender queer. I've seen them. So if someone doesnt remove their body parts (for MTF), they are essentially gender queer externally. part female body with a male penis. You would have breasts with a penis. Nothing wrong with that, but it is logically gender queer or gender odd or variant.

I mean, it could be genderqueer if they identified at all with genderqueer.  It could also not.  Someone who's "fully" female anatomically might identify with genderqueer too, and their identity is just as legitimate.

The point is that it's about identities and not at all about the physical body, which, again, is what being trans, in any way at all, whether a gender->-bleeped-<- boi or a MtA or an AFAB non-op neutrois or a MtF transsexual, is all about.

Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual woman being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world. These dissenters do not get to decide what is trans.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world.

The person themselves decide they are trans when they feel that they are of one gender but born in another gender body.

Gender does not equate to genetalia. If that was the case, the Conservative Right Wingers would have a picnic with us.....even with post ops...cuz they'll say, "That Vagina isn't a real vagina...it's just plastic surgery."

Gender identity is almost brain recognized. Also, the sheer fact that a therapist will "diagnose" a non op as trans is also support through the medical community.

When you state there has been over 100,000 people who have had SRS surgeries, there is probably 50 times more than that who has not gotten surgery, cannot get surgery, or has no desire to get surgery. Those people are also considered trans.

You have to be careful when you say girls who has not gotten their surgeries are genderqueer like bearded ladies, then that leaves interpretation to give other people excuse that you are a man with a vagina that was surgically put it in.

Now, of course, I do not believe you are a man with a vagina but ignorant people could use your arguments against you.

i agree with you 100% Val.......the problem is, people wanna twist and tangle things to coincide with their own agenda.......and this always comes down to the restroom.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:11:04 PM
Who decides that is trans?

There have been over 100,000 SRS's completed in the past 50 years. I imagine many of those women would disagree with that assessment of what is a transsexual being as how they corrected their bodies to be aligned with the female form.

I disagree that just because there is a segment of the population that is gender variant, that they get to decide what trans is. That is my entire objection, at its root. There have been many tens of thousands of binary trans folks. Why does this current popularity with gender variance negate the struggles of tens of thousands of women who have successfully corrected their bodies?

I object to that. On my own behalf and the tens of thousands of women who have gone before me and are living their lives in the binary world.

Just because trans* orthodoxy is that gender binary adhesion is not imperative doesn't mean that you can't identify on one pole.  Val, you're talking to someone who identifies pretty squarely on the female pole and, in 220 days, is going to have a body that pretty accurately reflects that.  That doesn't, however, mean that I'm "more woman" than someone for whom the latter isn't the case.

I'm not negating your struggle, I'm asking you not to negate the struggles of others (who may well identify within the gender binary) who don't have the luxury you do.

Hell, in the case of FtMs, factually speaking, there isn't a surgery that conclusively acts as a form-and-function replica like MtF vaginoplasty.  Does that make all trans men "less than" trans women?  Or does that make trans men who don't take "what's there" "not men" because they're "not binary"?

Trans is everything, Val.  You're free not to identify as trans if you don't want, and I won't try to label you as such.  But don't label someone who doesn't identify as genderqueer, or indeed as anything other than "MtF transsexual", as anything beyond what they want.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:19:33 PM
Just because trans* orthodoxy is that gender binary adhesion is not imperative doesn't mean that you can't identify on one pole.  Val, you're talking to someone who identifies pretty squarely on the female pole and, in 220 days, is going to have a body that pretty accurately reflects that.  That doesn't, however, mean that I'm "more woman" than someone for whom the latter isn't the case.

I'm not negating your struggle, I'm asking you not to negate the struggles of others (who may well identify within the gender binary) who don't have the luxury you do.

Hell, in the case of FtMs, factually speaking, there isn't a surgery that conclusively acts as a form-and-function replica like MtF vaginoplasty.  Does that make all trans men "less than" trans women?  Or does that make trans men who don't take "what's there" "not men" because they're "not binary"?

Trans is everything, Val.  You're free not to identify as trans if you don't want, and I won't try to label you as such.  But don't label someone who doesn't identify as genderqueer, or indeed as anything other than "MtF transsexual", as anything beyond what they want.

what she said lol

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:19:17 PM
i agree with you 100% Val.......the problem is, people wanna twist and tangle things to coincide with their own agenda.......and this always comes down to the restroom.

What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

it always comes down to the restroom!

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?

no idea

Quote from: Wonderdyke on October 14, 2011, 10:23:57 PM
What does anything in this discussion have to do with restrooms?  This comes down to identities, which, GALS AND GENTS AND GLAMOROUSLY-GENDERED GENTLEPEOPLE, you don't mess with.  It's that erasure that leads to us getting discriminated against.

try telling a pre-op or non-op that they should use the restroom most congruent with their genitalia and see what kind of responses you get!! lol

Respectfully, I dont see that I am messing with anyone. I am saying literally many, many tens of thousands of trans women completed their SRS's. This current popularity of gender variance does not erase those women's struggles or their voices. But because gender variant folk are out and voice their opinion openly, there is a misconception that there not is a strong, very large population of binary women, which there are. You can't simply erase them. One outspoken group of dissenters does not get to decide who and what is trans.

Our discussion is on MTF TS women, which I am qualified to speak about since I was one. I am not qualified to speak on FTM's and their bodies and have never tried. I think I visited their forum once to say hi.

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:31:27 PM

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

I agree with the above statement wholeheartedly. You're not reading what I posted right.

What we are saying is if you use the argument that genitalia has to be the marker for gender identification only, conservative people could use your argument against you and say you were born with a penis who got it removed to get plastic surgery of a vagina and you are just a man with a vagina.

Womyn Born Womyn uses your same type of beliefs but uses it against every transwoman in their viewpoints of transsexuals....even post op ones.

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:30:47 PM
try telling a pre-op or non-op that they should use the restroom most congruent with their genitalia and see what kind of responses you get!! lol

Try telling a pre-op or non-op that their identity is less legitimate.

I don't see where you're getting this from, because everything I just said points to people using the restroom coinciding with their identity.  This is literally a non sequitur.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:31:27 PM
Respectfully, I dont see that I am messing with anyone. I am saying literally many, many tens of thousands of trans women completed their SRS's. This current popularity of gender variance does not erase those women's struggles or their voices. But because gender variant folk are out and voice their opinion openly, there is a misconception that there not is a strong, very large population of binary women, which there are. You can't simply erase them.

Our discussion is on MTF TS women, which I am qualified to speak about since I was one. I am not qualified to speak on FTM's and their bodies and have never tried.

And if you dont think my vagina is real, well... it is.

Did I ever say it isn't?  Your vagina is just as sam hell real as any other woman's, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Val, you could identify as a pumpkin for all I care and I wouldn't be judgin'.  All I'm sayin' is that you should let people identify however they want, even if personally your views are a little different.

Misconceptions are stupid and need to die in a hole, and I'm sure there are a bunch of binary-identified women out there, and if you or any one of them want out of the trans community because you feel they aren't reflecting your views, then you're pretty much free to do so, and anyone denying you that right is weird.  Just remember that if you wanna stick around here, you can't go around suggesting other folks' identities aren't legitimate.

GUYS AND LADIES AND PEOPLE IN BETWEEN OR SOMEWHERE ELSE WITH REGARDS TO THEIR GENDER,

Just don't 'other' people because they're non-op.  It's not cool.

Quote from: badkitty on October 14, 2011, 10:27:23 PM
it always comes down to the restroom!

Except when it doesn't.  Like, you know, for 99% of life.

Unless you spend 99% of your life in restrooms?  In which case I guess DIFF'RENT STROKES

I dunno.  I have no idea what the point you're trying to make here is.

I've enjoyed chatting with you girls tonight.

Goodnight.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 14, 2011, 10:43:06 PM
I've enjoyed chatting with you girls tonight.

Goodnight.

good night