I think there is no excuse for lying.
Lying can never be a positive thing.
Anyone that implies it is positive reinforcement, is delusional.
The truth will set you free.

Should a marriage and family therapist tell you that its okay to lie to your spouse if it is to make them feel better?

If your spouse is completely suicidal and every day its a struggle for them to feel confident and happy, as well as paranoid. Does it make sense for you to lie to them?
I mean, okay, we are trying to get them to believe in themselves through attempted conditioning with "positive reinforcement".

Is this any different than teachng my 20 pound pug that lions are weaker and to attack on site, and then taking it to africa and letting it loose on the savannah?  Sure it may be confident it can win,  but the reality is, my little dog is getting chewed up.   


My therapist, who is a very active member of the trans community, has seemed to encourage this. I am at a loss.
Two people with whom I vested every bit of my being seem to be untrustworthy, one even seems malicious in their attempt to pursue social equality that they would knowingly and willingly lay someones life out .

Is it that important that we should not worry about the lives?

I can honestly say, this past week was hopeful, it was beautiful, and I felt alive.
Now, as the reality sets in, words cannot express the torment that I am enduring.  I cant even trust a bullet to take my life.

Sometimes I think it doesnt matter anyway.

It feels as though Ive gone through this all before. I feel as though Ive already lived this life and Ill live it again.
I can tell by my childhood that I had recollection of being trans, before I even knew what it was.
So you see, I am a firm believer that when I die, the dynamics of the universe play out, and reset.  Even chaos is ordered. This means that no matter how chaotic things may seem, we just have to look deeper to see how ordered they are.
This means that as the expansion of the universe  slows and then halts, it falls back into a tightly compressed ball of matter being ripped apart by the forces within it. At which time, we begin again.

->-bleeped-<- it. We're all ->-bleeped-<-ed anyways, doomed to repeat the same bull->-bleeped-<- until we dont, but who am I kidding, there will just be more ->-bleeped-<-.

I lied to get hormones.  I'm not ashamed, I don't feel I need to be excused.

I'm sorry to hear that you're struggling and in pain, though.  Nobody deserves that, and I hope things improve.

how do you lie to get on hormones? i just ordered them on line

Quote from: jillian on October 15, 2011, 12:46:15 AM
how do you lie to get on hormones? i just ordered them on line

she probably means she went behind her parents back and ordered the drugs online versus coming out and going through the safer channels of seeing a therapist and then having a Endocrinologist administer them to her.

I agree. Not only would I feel guilty lying about who I am to someone that I chose to be with and who chose to be with me, I would not want to be with a partner that I had to lie to about who I am in the first place.

yeah that's not lying.

She lied because the therapist told her it wasn't a bad thing if it was for a good reason.

I think Im actually getting angry at my therapist, because she knows what Ive been dealing with, so why would she make things harder.
I mean if her view of my life is so hopeless that she thinks its okay for my wife, partner, spouse, soul mate to lie.....what is that saying?

Its like when the reality is, she (my wife) is the only thing keeping me holding on,
and my family blames her for everything.
They should cherish her for being in the front lines.

I lied to...pretty much to everyone

Lies? Of course I don't have children.

Lies are acceptable sometimes. The lies your therapist is talking about definitely are not. You should not lie to your loved ones. Ever. That doesn't mean that you have to say every truthful thing to them, but you shouldn't flat out lie to them. If your loved ones can't trust you, who can? Likewise if you can't trust your loved ones, you're not in a very good relationship with them.

I'm truly sorry to hear that you're going through such pain. Remember that we're here for you and you can talk to any of us if you need to!

Last of all, don't let the bull->-bleeped-<- keep you down. A great man once said, "When life gives you lemons, make life take those lemons back!" I know it's hard, but you'll get through it. I believe in you wholeheartedly .

Quote from: Fighter Sadie on October 15, 2011, 07:14:52 AM
Last of all, don't let the bull->-bleeped-<- keep you down. A great man once said, "When life gives you lemons, make life take those lemons back!" I know it's hard, but you'll get through it. I believe in you wholeheartedly .

I prefer taking the lemons, and turning them into lemonade.

You get what you get in life, but what defines you is what you do with that. You can pout all you want but the lemons won't go away no matter how hard you want it. But if you take that negative experience, and draw lessons out of it. That's when you know you've made progress.

In this scenario, your spouse may have lied to you about things you'd rather have heard the truth about. But consider this: maybe she just wants you to feel comfortable, she wants to motivate you to be who you are no matter what other people say. It may not have been the best way to go about it, but in the end I do believe she did it because she truly cares for you and wants to help you.

So how do you make that lemonade out of this situation?
You now know she has been lying to you, so you can try to understand the reasons behind that and ask her to just be honest with you from here on out. That that will help you more than her lying about these things.
Another thing you know is that it's your cheeks that make you look more masculine, so you know what area of your face to pay closer attention to.

Lynn

Quote from: jillian on October 14, 2011, 11:40:56 PM
I think there is no excuse for lying.

It's a Pope approved game us Catholics play and it's called a "white lie". An untruth meant to be helpful, make someone feel better when they're down enough on themselves already, feeling self-hurtful - as long as the recipient KNOWS, FULLY UNDERSTANDS that the well intentioned one is definitely, otherwise totally full of BS!

I think it depends on the lie. There are lies of commission and lies of omission. Then to complicate things further is the lie about something hurtful to the person, or is the intent to positively reinforce feelings or behavior. Was your mom lying when you were 6 and brought home that drawing you made at school and said how great it was?

Lies aren't black and white like most things when dealing with people. I didn't tell my wife right off about getting involved with a TG group (lie of omission). I waited a few months since it was the first time ever for me to do something like that. After 2 meetings I knew I belonged there in the worse way and had to tell. Yet I didn't because at the time she was one banana peel away from suicide. It was eating me up inside not being to tell because I saw that as pushing her over the precarious edge we were both on.

Was I wrong not to tell her right away?
.

Quote from: jillian on October 14, 2011, 11:40:56 PM
I can honestly say, this past week was hopeful, it was beautiful, and I felt alive.
Now, as the reality sets in, words cannot express the torment that I am enduring.  I cant even trust a bullet to take my life.

Sometimes I think it doesnt matter anyway.

<not allowed> it. We're all ->-bleeped-<-ed anyways, doomed to repeat the same bull->-bleeped-<- until we dont, but who am I kidding, there will just be more ->-bleeped-<-.

We are all born into this existence to learn lessons. The lessons we chose to learn before we were born. We wouldn't have been able to register for this classroom experience if we weren't prepared and equipped to complete the course. If you drop out, you still have to take the course over until you pass.

does this thread have to do with your SO thread about the same subject?

If I was following your SO correctly, you asked her if there are some features that would clock you as you have been on HRT for 4 months but still get "Sir'ed."

She said yes, your cheeks. 

If I am reading her thread correctly, she wasn't lying. You asked her a question and she answered it. Might not have been the best answer you wanted to hear but it was her honesty. So it seems like you are more upset over her honesty than anything.

If this thread has nothing to do with your SO Lie thread then I apologize.

Quote from: Mahsa the disco shark on October 15, 2011, 02:34:43 AM
Lies? Of course I don't have children.

Cute, Mahsa!  I so totally feed my daughter the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc crap.  She eats it up.  She questions it, but now that she's old enough to understand, I don't answer her questions directly.  I pull the therapist route and ask her a question in return.  "Is Santa Claus real?"  "What do you think, hunny?"

Back on topic: Life is pain and adversity and struggle and beauty and triumph and love.  It's all these things when you step back and look at it.  After lying to everyone and myself for so many years, I am so done with it.  I tell the brutal honest truth when asked a direct question.  If not asked, I won't advertise certain facts if it doesn't make sense to.  I think reality stands on it's own, and if you lie, reality will eventually come to that person that you lied to.

Quote from: Cadence Jean on October 16, 2011, 05:59:32 PM
Cute, Mahsa!  I so totally feed my daughter the Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, etc crap.  She eats it up.  She questions it, but now that she's old enough to understand, I don't answer her questions directly.  I pull the therapist route and ask her a question in return.  "Is Santa Claus real?"  "What do you think, hunny?"

Back on topic: Life is pain and adversity and struggle and beauty and triumph and love.  It's all these things when you step back and look at it.  After lying to everyone and myself for so many years, I am so done with it.  I tell the brutal honest truth when asked a direct question.  If not asked, I won't advertise certain facts if it doesn't make sense to.  I think reality stands on it's own, and if you lie, reality will eventually come to that person that you lied to.

I told this guy I messed with guy one night if he wanted to see the VJJ and he was like, "Yeah sexy, send me the pic of it" and I never sent him the pic. He looked like a Justin Timberlake's Mexican equivilent. Oh he was sooooo cute!

My point is that I should have had a photo in my phone ready to go and because of that he never called me back.

Quote from: jillian on October 14, 2011, 11:40:56 PM
Should a marriage and family therapist tell you that its okay to lie to your spouse if it is to make them feel better?

I guess it depends.  My SO's eating disorder occasionally has me twisting or omitting the truth to avoid negative irrational behavior on her end.  Conversation centering around appearance and weight is taboo.  Direct honesty to loaded questions stemming from her disorder is not advisable, especially when the honest answer could be triggering.

The absolute unequivocal worse thing we do is lie to ourselves in the preop stage!

Quote from: Ciao bella2 on October 17, 2011, 12:13:32 PM
The absolute unequivocal worse thing we do is lie to ourselves in the preop stage!

I'm in the non op stage...so we shall see.

Lying can absolutely be a positive thing. If a federal narcotics agent deceives a drug cartel into believing that he/she is a professional smuggler to gather intel on drug trafficking routes, that's lying. If an intelligence operative recruits into a terrorist organization in order to transmit data on their training, equipment, planning, relative level of organization, and so on then they must lie in order to do so. If I nod my head and tell my father that I'm male when I am in fact female to avoid being rendered homeless, a fate I've done nothing to deserve, that is lying.

Not one of the things I listed above is even remotely morally questionable, and each serves a good purpose. I just can't stand moral absolutism, it never takes situational modification into account. Lying can be quite harmful and unacceptable, but that isn't universally true. If a man lies to his wife about where he is going so that he can bop his mistress, that is immoral lying and definitively harmful. If a transperson marries someone without telling them that they're a transperson, it's debatable as to whether this is lying but it is undoubtedly harmful.

In the case of your therapist, I don't know exactly what sort of lies are being encouraged. They may indeed be harmful, immoral lies you're being asked to tell. But let's not get ahead of ourselves and set all lying on fire as a result. There is such a thing as a good lie. Lies thwart criminals and keep members of our community fed and clothed every day. Lying is the only reason I'm still ALIVE. Had I come out to my father earlier in my life, I'd be dead right now. Trust me, that's NO exaggeration.

Quote from: JoanneB on October 15, 2011, 08:17:54 PM
We are all born into this existence to learn lessons. The lessons we chose to learn before we were born. We wouldn't have been able to register for this classroom experience if we weren't prepared and equipped to complete the course. If you drop out, you still have to take the course over until you pass.

I don't recall signing up for this crap. As I remember it, I signed up for the "How to be a Gorgeous Danish Heiress" class. Must've gotten the forms mixed up at the head office, eh?