Kia Ora,

Does it really matter what's between ones legs or for that matter upon ones chest ?...
If a person looks and acts the part[ ie, tucking and binding ], the only people who might possibly have some concern are oneself and[if one is sexually active] the partner/s one is being intimate with[ and fortunately there are cis-gender males and females who are attracted to the person-not what they have or haven't got between their legs]...

If one blends in 'appearance-wise' and takes the necessary steps to avoid detection[not letting it all hang out in public so to speak] society will be none the wiser, and for the non-ops[those who choose to stay non op or just can't afford to pay for the surgery], being seen and treated as their affirmed gender is all they desire...

If the local government/state comes to the party by legally recognising ones affirmed gender [affirmed as in being diagnosed and having been living comfortably in one affirmed gender for a year or two-with no desire whatsoever to go back to living as their birth sex]  that will be the icing on the cake for the no-ops...

Reality is, when it comes to gender recognition society/the general public will have the last say...Surgery or no surgery...

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Kia Ora Val,
I hope you're doing well and still enjoying life...Good night...

Metta Zenda

Quote from: Zenda on October 14, 2011, 10:48:19 PM
Kia Ora,

Does it really matter what's between ones legs or for that matter upon ones chest ?...
If a person looks and acts the part[ ie, tucking and binding ], the only people who might possibly have some concern are oneself and[if one is sexually active] the partner/s one is being intimate with[ and fortunately there are cis-gender males and females who are attracted to the person-not what they have or haven't got between their legs]...

If one blends in 'appearance-wise' and takes the necessary steps to avoid detection[not letting it all hang out in public so to speak] society will be none the wiser, and for the non-ops[those who choose to stay non op or just can't afford to pay for the surgery], being seen and treated as their affirmed gender is all they desire...

If the local government/state comes to the party by legally recognising ones affirmed gender [affirmed as in being diagnosed and having been living comfortably in one affirmed gender for a year or two-with no desire whatsoever to go back to living as their birth sex]  that will be the icing on the cake for the no-ops...

Reality is, when it comes to gender recognition society/the general public will have the last say...Surgery or no surgery...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Kia Ora Val,
I hope you're doing well and still enjoying life...Good night...

Metta Zenda

Nope, doesn't matter.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep, you've got it.

G'night Val.  Was nice talkin'.

so why did you choose to come back? anyway, i don't know why it matters what a female body is, what a male body is. some people don't believe in genitalia as a membership card. really, i don't have much to say other than what Stephe said in her last post. she pretty much covered it. i do know that post ops born in the body of male would still have the prostate, cowpers gland, and seminal vesicles. those physical parts are no less male than the penis, but you seem to get on fine with them? i don't know, i just don't know why it has to be like this. the only reason you should've gotten srs was because it was going to make you happy. it doesn't seem like it did if you still have to validate your category.

it's obvious, the new up and coming generations of people with GID are getting more and more access to the resources that can put them in peace with their life. the SOC has just upgraded to the new revision, and the arguement of who is the "correct transsexual" is losing just about all of it's sense.

I can't see why you are getting so wound up about this Valerie, if you are happy having had SRS, that  is really all that matters.  I intend to too, but if it is prevented by a medical issue for example, I will just have to live without it. 

I think something I read by Julia Serano summed it up pretty well.  It was something along the lines of," there are women with penises, and men with vaginas, and the world is going to have to cope with it."
I would have added," and bloody well learn to like it."

Really, the moment the contraceptive pill was invented all the rules of gender and sexuality went out the window, and society still hasn't caught up fifty years later.

Karen.

Good morning ladies :-)

I came back to respond to a few posts in the Post-op forum, as there were some statements in there that were directed at me. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone. Was just upset and discouraged that contributions that I made in some areas on this site (specifically surgery) werent recognized by the people I was helping, or to put it in terms of that discussion providing leadership to.

I wont be staying to cause everyone grief. I think my presence is not helpful to many here. I wish all of you well and happiness.

Just one more comment/question Valerie.. What of us that want 'the surgery' but are unable, for various medical reasons, to have it? Do I like having male genitals, heck no, but the likelihood is any major surgery would kill me.. Where do I fit in to your beliefs? Should I run the (very high) risk of death just to conform?

Hi Kelly, good morning. No not at all. You are a woman as any other, which is your internal identity (according to my belief system). It is the physical body that does not match the identity, it is the body that has the unwanted, wrong male part(s) or unwanted features. If a TS woman does not desire to correct her body (body dysphoria), then it is a valid question is she TS woman? The key word is desire, not the actual correction.

You are a very lovely woman, as many others here are.

Another negative reputation point... wonderful. At least you are showing yourselves your opposition to the WPATH Transsexual ICD and DSM definitions for all to see. My posts always have their roots to those and the earlier versions of them. My posts always comes back and points to the many tens of thousands of women who have suffered from transsexuality and were either cured or suffered from that condition until their death ...or are still suffering today. Many here on this site.

Your negative smites simply show how you feel about that condition, formerly known as transsexuality (and still the title of many forums here) and the path to a cure.

Your smites are shameful because it reflects your feelings on those many sufferers.

If your condition is not debilitating, good for you. But dont smite and smear those that were debilitated. Dont smite those that were cured and reach out to help those other women.

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 07:18:37 AM
Good morning ladies :-)

I came back to respond to a few posts in the Post-op forum, as there were some statements in there that were directed at me. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone. Was just upset and discouraged that contributions that I made in some areas on this site (specifically surgery) werent recognized by the people I was helping, or to put it in terms of that discussion providing leadership to.

I wont be staying to cause everyone grief. I think my presence is not helpful to many here. I wish all of you well and happiness.

Valerie you look fabulous and I absolutely love different opinions.  Glad you are back!

I remember first time I came to Susan's.    I was in awe!  How could a person have so much courage to survive ridicule to change their gender!  I have had no one to talk to for several decades and it has been a lonely journey and it is great therapy to just write and/or talk.

I have found nuances with several people that are not prevalent in forum.  Each of us have developed different coping mechanisms.  Fragmentation is so great that if each person must fit a mold at end of day we will have no one to talk to.

Tri Ess excludes me because I am too different for them.  Yet cross dressers have taught me a lot of tips to be more stylish.    Most other groups tend to reject me too because I do not fit their mold.

People might move slow because of a wife, job, family, health, finances, scared, etc.  (I am freaking scared!  What if I am insane?  Whole thing is illogical! )

I have two friends that have fully transitioned and tell me they are now women and not transsexuals.  In fact they tell me that I am a transsexual since I have not transitioned.  Where do we get all these labels?

I have found my label.  I am me.  I will be me if I transition, if I don't transition and if I partially transition.

Frankly I dislike female restrooms because lines are too long.  I go to restroom to pee and prefer a single room with no gender marker and lock on door.

If a person has a sense of love in their being then their form of expression is good for them.  I do not understand myself let alone everyone else.  I know I can not function and doing something seems to be only path I have.

I applaud people that come on this site and brag how everything turned out wonderful.  My goodness I sure have lost a lot and I seem to feel somewhat better in things I have done on journey.

Are gender queers people that transition slowly?

We do not know how someone feels in their head.  We only have ability to try to share our thoughts and feelings.

Thank you Wendy. It is good to see you as well. I am glad you have found your way and are happy. There is value in diversity of opinion. In any case, we all have opinions :-)

Val

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 08:23:53 AM
Thank you Wendy. It is good to see you as well. I am glad you have found your way and are happy. There is value in diversity of opinion. In any case, we all have opinions :-)

Val

Totally agree, Val.  Censorship of opinions, even those that don't necessarily align with the majority opinion of this site, are really valuable, and I don't want to drive them away. 

I'm glad you're back, too.

Quote from: Annah on October 14, 2011, 10:19:00 PM
Gender does not equate to genetalia. If that was the case, the Conservative Right Wingers would have a picnic with us.....even with post ops...cuz they'll say, "That Vagina isn't a real vagina...it's just plastic surgery."

Yes, I agree with this. We are all gender or sex queer physically thanks to the condition of our birth, with an identity of one and the body of another.

Even post-op my body isnt the same as a born female body in some ways beyond the external. Though externally and genital-wise we are now the same.

The difference I am making (that I've been arguing) is that this isnt about them, this isnt about anyone else other than me and my view of my body. The dysphoria I felt by being born with a body that did not match my view of myself. It was never about them, never about society, or anyone. Just me.

I had my surgery for myself, I had to correct what I saw as an abomination. Something hated.

This is where we have a disconnect. I am concerned about myself and my view of my body, and others here are concerned about society and rights.

I corrected my body. No one can ever take that away from me, no matter what laws are passed in the future. No matter if I am ever mobbed, stoned, or brutalized. I am at peace with myself now. I can die now happy.

The conservatives can do what they want. They can hate me, they can kill me. They cannot take my vagina away. Too bad for them.

correct me if i am wrong but it seems your trying to say your not at fault for wanting everyone to conform to your image of what a lady is ? what's wrong when i first joined here you were this lovely lady who gave me tons of advice but recently you have been quite mean ? maybe before creating threads to insult particular ppl and then justify yourself pls just think about how your actions are effecting our support forum because i to did some stuff and i didn't realise until someone told me and i am glad they did so i am doing the same for you pls just remember this is a forum for supporting everyone no matter what their choices are 

I dont see that I am declaring what a lady is? I am stating what a female body is, there is no argument there. That is not being mean, however.

I came back because I was upset by the comments of someone that I had helped. I had to respond to posts that were mocking and belittling women who cannot find their clitoris post-operatively due to complcations or whatever. Women who cannot orgasm and perhaps never will. Is that something to joke about or make light of? I dont think it is. Now that is being mean. That is something deserving of negative reputation points. But not because I spoke up. That is shameful giving me negative points when I am simply defneding those women with complications. I had to respond to posts about leadership when I gave leadership to women going through their surgery.

I want to be helpful and friendly. I am just defending the WPATH DSM and ICD paths for treatment for Type V and Type VI transsexual women. Any others will have to get their support from those people who have gone before them, for the conditions they suffer from.

It took me many years to get up the courage to transition, courage to have surgery. I am 53 now. I am not casting stones at anyone. I lived with a penis for 51 years. I know what it is like to have dysphoria an entire lifetime. I had a difficult life as many here have. I am not attacking anyone, or being mean to anyone. Just defending myself and the contributions I made here ...over the course of years.

Can you or anyone honestly say that is being mean?

Quote from: Valeriedoeswcs on October 15, 2011, 12:07:35 PM
I dont see that I am declaring what a lady is? I am stating what a female body is, there is no argument there. That is not being mean, however.

I came back because I was upset by the comments of someone that I had helped. I had to respond to posts that were mocking and belittling women who cannot find their clitoris post-operatively due to complcations or whatever. Women who cannot orgasm and perhaps never will. Is that something to joke about or make light of? I dont think it is. Now that is being mean. That is something deserving of negative reputation points. I had to respond to posts about leadership when I gave leadership to women going through their surgery.

I want to be helpful and friendly. I am just defending the WPATH DSM and ICD paths for treatment for Type V and Type VI women. Any others will have to get their support from those people who have gone before them, for the conditions they suffer from.

It took me many years to get up the courage to transition, courage to have surgery. I am 53 now. I am not casting stones at anyone. I lived with a penis for 51 years. I know what it is like to have dysphoria an entire lifetime. I had a difficult life as many here have. I am not attacking anyone, or being mean to anyone. Just defending myself and the contributions I made here ...over the course of years.

well, my dysphoria over my male genitals ranges between indifference to a vulva being the ideal. i believe i am transsexual, but my lifestyle is just different. i don't love my penis by any means just because i will masturbate, which some lady has told me quite recently. the point is, i have the ability to become post op as well, which would sound like i would gain instant membership to your advocacy, even though i don't feel the same as you do. anyway, i don't understand why someone who wants srs intensely versus someone who could live non op needs to be segregated.

by lady i meant the female body and i am talking about your recent actions in general pls just rather pm the person you have a issue with than start threads against them mwa mwa no hard feelings between us i hope 'hugs' i am just making sure you don't do something you will regret

The other lady and I have resolved our issues privately in PM's.

Goodbye everyone and good luck with your lives.

you too, take care.

Definition of sex from Canadian Oxford:

Quote
1 either of the main divisions (male and female) into which living things are placed on the basis of their reproductive functions.

We no longer use that definition. Sex ceased to be a biological category for humans hundreds of years ago. It was a term used to express REPRODUCTIVE function. The end. In the strict sense a post-operative woman is neuter, not female. So is every impotent bloke and every woman post-menopause. And since the term is not used in its original biological definition, this means that sex is a social category.

Let me give an example. A male soldier steps on a landmine in Afghanistan, he suffers that injury that all blokes are terrified of. However, he is still male. He does not suddenly cease to be male due to the lack of a penis. His IDs remain unchanged, his pronouns, everything stays exactly as it was. He is a disabled guy, but he is still a guy.

Or to put it another way, if you cut a guy's dick off, he doesn't become female, and neither will I.

I do not identify as MTF. I am a female who was born with a birth defect. I am correcting that defect. In less than 6 months my birth certificate will be altered to indicate that I was born female. I have zero interest in labelling anyone who is not me.

Efforts to rewrite the definition of sex to fit a specific agenda are exactly that. Rewriting. Don't imagine there is any actual basis for the crotch-definition.

Well said, Sarah7.